Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

165 replies

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2020 15:05

A gay friend of mine has written about how he went from TRA to GC from a gay perspective. He’s planning on writing some more essays about how the ‘gender cult’ is intrinsically homophobic.

I thought it might be useful to share as a counter to Owen Jones, who he previously believed was a reasonable person to listen to on this. He is also pretty gutted about what has happened to Stonewall, whose authority he trusted.

twitter.com/duncrail78/status/1291373475886768128?s=21

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:50

I think you are being brave to talk about it too as a friend so that is brave of you.

Thanks, it was a calculated risk, which is mad isn’t it, when it’s a friend?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:35

Really aggressive responses from Shadi Petosky on twitter. Blue tick with a large following, but their tweets don’t get much traction: “So you’re an isolationist who basically had no connection to LGBTQ culture, didn’t live in a gayborhood etc. and basically know no trans people — you were a casual supporter not a “trans rights activist” on any way really.”

Those tweets were really interesting to read - someone banging on about Judith Butler and telling a gay man that they weren’t gay enough to have an opinion on LGBTQ because they, as a gay man, weren’t challenging gender.

Douglas Murray has written about the split in the gay community in The Madness of Crowds (which I’m currently reading and had an interesting chapter on gay rights which he knows about and a terrible chapter on feminism which he doesn’t). The split is between those who are in favour of a queer culture that transgresses modern society (the ones who are no doubt behind Drag Queen Story Time and the ones who publicly display fetishes at Pride) and gay people who simply want to have sex with the same sex and get on with their lives, so it was interesting to see this play out on twitter.

A gay man rejecting the path Stonewall is taking is fine, because he’s the wrong kind of gay.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 12:26

Thanks noble I do find that baffling but I guess it shows how genderism is political, in the sense of a theory, an idea, an identity, something ‘right’ to campaign for, and not a reality in some people’s lives- yet women saying ‘this affects my life’ doesn’t get traction. The asymmetry again, because patriarchy.

By the way as much as I think he’s brave to write about it, I think you are being brave to talk about it too as a friend so that is brave of you.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 12:20

And as a gay man, did Duncan really genuinely see transmen as the exact same as other men?

Well, I am sure that he will be writing more on this from his perspective, but he did consider trans men, even without bottom surgery, as potential sexual partners. This was one of the last things to fall for him in our discussions (and it wasn’t me that tipped that one) which I found baffling as I thought ‘genital fetish’ was a clear way in. I think he found some trans men attractive and hadn’t really considered the logistics because it was theoretical.

OP posts:
ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2020 12:12

I would love to see the Twitter response if a lesbian wrote the same thing or if a heterosexual female wrote the same thing.

I am gender non conforming female who supported trans rights but now I am gender critical.. anyone up for it?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 08/08/2020 11:07

That's a really interesting post ChattyLion. We do need to work together to end the culture war but it's bloody hard with so many organisations implacable opposed to women and our rights.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 08/08/2020 11:04

It's often been said on here that people need to be enabled to back away from TWAW and all the other mantras. We need people to see what's happening and openly change their mind. Most of us started as sympathetic allies but rarely 'nailed our flags to the mast ' so to speak - just nodded along until we realised what we were agreeing to. Duncan however was in the full on "terfs are bigots" group.
So I will continue to applaud Duncan for being able to change his mind and having the courage to do so publicly. We need many more men like him to see what is happening to women as a consequence of all this and to speak out.

ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 10:58

(Sorry my posts are really long).

It’s interesting to me that while we do need to eventually find common ground on this issue, the genderised asymmetry is everywhere and we have to all see that to move forward and act on it. It’s never been six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I also know men and women like this who have taken on the genderist cause, out of sympathy with themselves or for other men who don’t fit the gender conforming mould. I get that. I take on women’s causes in much the same way.

And I get it that some of them assume that a lot more surgical change has been made (euphemism) than actually happens when they think about transwomen. But then I immediately think, why would that matter? Doing a load of surgery or not doing any- neither makes you a woman. The men I know are not dating transwomen if they are straight or transmen if they are gay. So they do see the difference.

I’m just trying to bridge the gap in my understanding about how (understandably) any man’s male perspective, may have informed their thinking on gender- such that they could ever really believe or want to make others agree, that a man having a particular thought, or wearing particular clothes, or having particular operations.. could ever ‘make’ that man a woman.

The belief of woman as something that other people can legitimately define, is what Duncan’s writing expresses to me in my reading of his writing. But he doesn’t seem to quite explore consciously how and why he felt that way. I’m interested in what can we do with all that if it’s a commonly-held POV, and how we can use it to move forward?

Why was it that at the start of his timeline Duncan didn’t instinctively say to himself on learning of this new politics, that of course you can never become a woman, if you were born a man. (I mean, I know the answer to that ..). But what a huge experience gap it shows. To a lot of women, the idea that you can’t change into a woman is as indisputable as the sun rising and setting every day.

(And as a gay man, did Duncan really genuinely see transmen as the exact same as other men? Like at the same time he was drafting off that email to HR because a colleague said that TWANW? Tho I don’t know exactly what the colleague said, TBF- apologies if that wasn’t it)

He says the scales fell from his eyes with Marie informing him of the widening of the trans umbrella, so he began to see the category of trans as unreliable. He has not written clearly that he saw the category of sex as reliable. I think it took Marie to show him that?

So this would be an example of male privilege. Sorry- not trying to be mean and personal to Duncan- he’s obviously not the only one to wear those blinkers. I am not ignoring his great deficit of privilege in other ways- being gaybashed at school must have been horrific and I’m sure he will have encountered other homophobic incidents.

It’s just that all those years of me being told that I ‘can’t do this’ or ‘should do that‘ because I am a girl, or because I am a woman, or because I am a mother now... and because of living in my female body this long in all its positives and all its negatives.. these things have made me very very sure I am a woman. And that biological sex is real and unchanging. And that gender is stereotypes which are a trap. And that’s partly because other people have spent a lot of time policing my womaning. Which men just don’t seem to experience or appreciate in the same way.

Duncan says ‘Most people who identify as trans women do not have full sex reassignment treatment. Most are still physically male, and when I found out that cross-dressers and what we used to call “transvestites” are now “trans women”, the entire house of cards that was my gender ideology began to collapse.‘

So I guess his writing is helping me to reflect that I had assumed that everyone really believed that you can’t change sex and that they were just trying to be kind in saying otherwise. Because I mean, what is ‘full sex reassignment treatment’? a Full or part.. of what? A ‘sex reassignment operation’ doesn’t mean that you ‘become a woman’.

And, a bit like the loss of the rainbow flag’s meaning or the loss of the positive politics that Stonewall used to represent, that Duncan describes- so many women are horrified at the way that womanhood has been quietly retooled to mean something else (to some people) and that the new meaning has been adopted by the law (GRA). I find it absolutely hostile and chilling to see regulatory capture all over the public sector and now in the private sector at influential companies like Google or High street historical figures that have become read as a token of UK identity like M&S.

‘Womanhood’ whether with positive or negative connotations in how women are viewed, has been the idea that informed the creation of spaces and institutions for female-only fun, solidarity, education, care, or safety, or correction, away from men. Political groups for women, Lesbian/women’s-only club nights, lesbian bars, girls secondary schools, women’s higher education institutions, the old ‘mother and baby homes’, women’s prisons and DV shelters etc

These initiatives rely on the idea of womanhood as a separate thing from manhood. Women’s time often in face of male opposition, was crucial to build these initiatives. They all crucially acknowledge the asymmetrical power relationship between the two sexes, and often that the position of women often affects the possible outcomes for children.

Sorry this is so long. I am just seeing more clearly that all this is not about the category of trans people, it’s about the category of women.

Because patriarchy means that for a lot of people, the sexed category of men Hmm) is not a category that they feel they have the power to define.

That’s even though they are not a woman and the down sides of any redefinition of women won’t affect them. Or, they are a woman but have class or social capital or other resources enough not to need many ‘women’s‘ services that now let in men.

And as abstract political thought experiments none of that would matter that much, were it not that a lot of other people will unquestioningly accept that new definition of women and seek to reinforce and police it in real life. While feeling that this redefinition is all an act of soldarity with GNC men. (Like reporting a woman to HR for being gender critical..)

This isn’t anything new, it’s the logical conclusion of a sexist politics. Genderism is a product of sexism. But i found it interesting to think about the rights of redefinition and the misplaced solidarity with men as a real driver of behaviour in the way Duncan describes it in his writing, and I hope he writes more about that.

We do need to all work together to end the culture war. (it’s too one sided to be a ‘War’ - ‘culture attack’ feels more accurate?) So it’s good to feel that there are ways that friends can reach each other and talk like Marie and Duncan did. We need Parliamentary reform, repeal the GRC and rely on EqA but reflecting on this, I might also try to stick my neck out again with friends as a matter of understanding each other for the sake of our old friendships.

I find it really interesting and helpful to have insight into the drivers for other people’s politics so these Medium pieces were interesting to read. Sorry to waffle on.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 10:16

I don't know how you can believe that.

It’s true that I don’t know what his real motivation was in the heat of the moment, but from what I know of him and what he has said about the incident, I don’t believe he was out to get anyone sacked.

I’m sure it felt very different from @FuriousAndFrustrated ‘s perspective and I remember her thread at the time and being horrified and worried on her behalf. In fact her thread is one of the main reasons that I hold back from talking to people about this topic in real life. It didn’t quite stop me from talking to Duncan about it, which is rather ironic given that the thread was about him (although obviously I didn’t know that till this thread). And I talked to him about Furious’s experience in terms of women being silenced, again without knowing I was talking to the perpetrator.

OP posts:
teawamutu · 08/08/2020 10:03

I've seen Duncan's conversion played out on Twitter. Fwiw I think he comes across as genuine, it's a great piece and full credit to him for holding his hands up and apologising.

Shows the danger of Stonewall being unquestionably accepted as The Goodies.

HuckfromScandal · 08/08/2020 09:43

In my experience - our best allies and strongest supporters Can be people who started out on the “other side”. I know that’s where I was several years ago.

As we have had to come to terms with the circularity of the arguments. I for one, welcome Duncan, and I hope that we can all be the bigger people in accepting that not all of us “get it’ right from the outset.

DidoLamenting · 08/08/2020 09:41

@ChateauMargaux

While I think it is good that he has spoken out, I remain to be convinced that this is not just another man, centering his own thinking, he thought he was right, now he is using his own words to say he is right again rather than putting forward the position of women, front and centre to counteract the overwhelming misogyny that fuels much of this debate.
I agree. I still think he comes across as an insufferable little prig , even after the apology.

trying to destroy someones income is nasty

He wouldn’t be my friend if that had been his intent

I don't know how you can believe that. What he did had every possibility of the person he complained about losing their job.

Mummyoflittledragon · 08/08/2020 09:37

Because he’s gay and there’s no power imbalances in his sexual relationships and dealings with men, he just assumed that’s how the world was.

That is a really interesting point. I had never thought of the world from this perspective either, not being male.

gay men might not see women’s rights as anything to do with them, or even understand it is an issue.

This will follow from your point above. It would be nice, however, if ill informed gay men could listen rather than lecture. Does Duncan have any ideas of what more he could be doing to address this?

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 09:24

I am not trying to be self righteous about assuming that Duncan has guilt and shame.

He does, and also anger, a lot of it at himself, for being duped and finding himself in the wrong where he thought he was doing the right thing.

This guy was on social media talking about how LGB Alliance were a hate group simply because that’s what he’d been told they were by people he trusted.

I know there’s a tendency on MN to see that this might simply be another man spotting an opportunity to blow his own trumpet about how he’s the font of all knowledge and everyone should listen to him, but he is genuinely gutted and trying to make amends. He’s now a member of the LGB Alliance (hate group!), he’s donated to Allison Bailey and other crowd funders, he’s apologised to JK Rowling and Maya Forstater and I think these essays (he has more to come) are his attempt at action rather than self-aggrandisement.

OP posts:
Portnlemon · 08/08/2020 09:06

@FuriousAndFrustrated

I can confirm that I've today received a copy of the email sent to our corporate HR department on 30th June, withdrawing the report:

" I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

Seems pretty genuine to me. (And I'm not surprised nothing has happened so far.... our HR are notoriously inefficient!)

Thanks @noblegiraffe

You are assuming that HR have done nothing because they are notoriously inneficiant. The reality is nothing has been done because there is nothing to be done. When HR get people complaining about each other over stuff that is irrelevant to their job we just humour them until they go away. We aren't interested in your squabbles but some, like this man, think we must jump when they say jump. Rather than have him start moaning about us next we say look I'm jumping.

So we get used as the bogyman by people wanting to damage each other and when we just ignore this nonsense we get called inefficient.

What would you expect HR to do that was more efficient? Waste more time getting involved in your non work related argument? That is the opposite of efficient, the efficient thing to do is just forget about it immediately.

noblegiraffe · 08/08/2020 09:01

It isn’t just women that are affected though, it’s also a homophobic movement - anyone who saw that awful video of that poor young lesbian can’t be in any doubt that sexuality is also under attack.

Given that one of the main drivers of the debate in this country is Stonewall and Duncan fell in line with their thinking because it was Stonewall and they’d supported him in his fight (when he came out, Section 28 was still in place, for example), it is good to understand the unthinking allegiance that means gay men may have a blind spot here.

He had no real concept of sexism until a few years ago. As a gay male with mostly male friends and no children, he just treated women as another set of people he occasionally interacted with and had no idea that other men behaved so poorly towards them. Because he’s gay and there’s no power imbalances in his sexual relationships and dealings with men, he just kind of assumed that’s how the world was. He had a similar scales dropping from his eyes moment on that front.

Hopefully as a gay man he might be able to reach other gay men on the homophobia because while women speaking up is obviously vital, gay men might not see women’s rights as anything to do with them, or even understand it as an issue.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 08/08/2020 08:31

Flowers Furiousandfrustrated I can only imagine how upsetting it was to have your job threatened by this. I’m sorry about the redundancy too. And whoever Marie is she has done women a really good turn.

It was brave of Duncan to write this and I can see that he’s trying to ‘do what is right not what is easy’ as he says, by doing so. I’d expect that he is also rightly feeling some shame and guilt about reporting a woman to their HR department for having some views that he and his group didn’t like. I would be interested to hear more if he writes more about this for Medium. What threat did he feels that she posed? What did he want to happen by reporting her? What did he feel like once he’d done it? Who was it done to benefit? (and who does he feel actually did benefit?)

And I can appreciate that It must be hard for Duncan to feel the strong change in reaction to the rainbow flag that he has come to feel. Something that once offered safety and solidarity and community and fun has been used as a Trojan Horse to represent a divisive politics that is antithetical to same-sex attraction, all without the consent of the majority of the same-sex attracted people who built the community that gave the rainbow flag its meaning and who still rely it as a signal of community and safety. And for the future- this affects all the people coming out, who can no longer have any certainty in what the flag will really mean or what it will point them towards. Particularly if they are lesbian or bisexual women.

There’s lots of other people feel that way about the rainbow flag now- www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3834960-What-do-you-think-about-the-rainbow-flag
these are both LGB people and women who fear the actions of people (like Duncan) who might try to get at them in some way because the woman is standing up for women in some way against genderist politics. Maybe even in such a controversial way Hmm as posting online saying that she doesn’t agree with it, or just, you know, as a woman defining the word woman. Like the actual dictionary does. The silencing that is going on is really scary. I would be interested to hear former TRA’s reflections on this. (And reporting a woman to HR for being gender critical is TRA behaviour in my book)

I am not trying to be self righteous about assuming that Duncan has guilt and shame. (I mean, I think he must do- he should do?) Shame and guilt motivate me too, I know that much. How many of us on here have posted about shame and guilt for not speaking up and doing more for women because we fear for our jobs, privacy, children, mental health, lots of other reasons? I have felt all that, its a relatively common theme on FWR. I support the crowdfunders and applaud the sheroes speaking out gratefully because they’re doing something I don’t feel able to do and they are taking an immense amount of shit to help all of us.

So it’s great that the LGB alliance is now here for same-sex attracted people and hopefully can be a coalescing point for anyone who will find that helpful. Like it’s great there have been the various gender critical women’s groups and lesbian and detransitioned women’s groups emerging or becoming more prominent in the last few years, obviously many women on here will have started or been involved with some or all of these.

I can appreciate that Duncan’s realisation about genderism must have prompted a similar feeling to what women on here have called becoming ‘politically homeless’ - when you realise no political party will stand up for women so there’s no one to vote for.

I mean same-sex attracted people realising what Stonewall, their LGB groups and venues etc have become and how that affects especially people coming out and needing to be in touch with other out people- that sense of dislocation from what you thought was your community. So I would be interested to hear about his thoughts on Party politics as informed by his disillusionment, if he writes more on all this.

ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2020 06:16

While I think it is good that he has spoken out, I remain to be convinced that this is not just another man, centering his own thinking, he thought he was right, now he is using his own words to say he is right again rather than putting forward the position of women, front and centre to counteract the overwhelming misogyny that fuels much of this debate.

ItsLateHumpty · 08/08/2020 03:53

Really aggressive responses from Shadi Petosky on twitter. Blue tick with a large following, but their tweets don’t get much traction.
From reading around, I would surmise that this person is a transwoman, who is also very angry at Buck Angel.

twitter.com/shadipetosky/status/1291660200286461956

Shadi Petosky @shadipetosky
Replying to @duncrail78
So you’re an isolationist who basically had no connection to LGBTQ culture, didn’t live in a gayborhood etc. and basically know no trans people — you were a casual supporter not a “trans rights activist” on any way really.

DidoLamenting · 08/08/2020 01:46

@WildishBambino

He has apologised indirectly via a mutual friend, but hasn't (or hadn't when I last checked) withdrawn his report to HR.

If he's not attempted to undo the damage he's done, which might be embarrassing for him, then his big public mea culpa is worth jack shit.

He came across as an insufferable little prig running and telling HR.
Cascade220 · 07/08/2020 23:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dervel · 07/08/2020 22:47

That was a powerfully and well written piece, I think people who have the capacity to change their mind are like gold dust in this world, but I would counsel him to not be too angry at his “side” mainly for “there but for the grace of god go I” reasons.

We’re capable of sliding into dogma. What I would advise is for him to carry on with what he started in his article and try to exhibit the patience and eloquence of his old university friend.

I’ve been ruminating on issues like these recently, and I had historically been guilty of blaming identity politics, like so many on the right are want to do these days, but I’ve had something of a lightbulb moment and can see all these idpol movements (be they feminist, sexual orientation, religious, economic or even racial) have come about precisely from oppression from a more conservative (usually Christian if it’s the west) that refused to see members of those groups as individuals, as in membership in any group was more important than individual identity, and what has happened is those groups have quite understandably formed communities to be safe, but it inadvertently falls into the same trap as as the conservative right that caused the initial problem.

Now I as a straight white male find myself suddenly being pre-judged as a member of those groups, and actually for the moment that’s fine as I think it has given me insights I may not have arrived at otherwise, as for the majority of my life that straight white male privilege afforded me the right to be judged as an individual on my own merits. I wonder if this trans rights movement is some attempt to claim back that hitherto unquestioned privilege now it has started to be robustly challenged?

I think to ruminate a lot more to come up with something more coherent.

aliasundercover · 07/08/2020 22:03

Don't call yourself a wuss FuriousAndFrustrated, we've all had to compromise at times. Knowing when to stand and when to concede is smart - there's little point in fighting a battle you cannot win.

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on Duncan. He's open minded enough to change his view when presented with new evidence/arguments - how many of us could truly say the same? And he's apologised and begun to make amends. At the time he felt he was doing the right thing, supporting the downtrodden. With all the crap that Stonewall has been pumping out for the last few years it's understandable he was fooled. What's really evil is when people say and do stuff they know is untrue or unjustified - Owen Jones is a prime example of this many times over.

I can easily imagine how I might have ended up as a TRA. I vaguely felt that way when trans was hardly an issue to anyone, and if I'd listened to a few old friends when the topic first became contentious I might have headed in that direction. Like many people I can be stubborn, and once I've made my mind up it can be hard for me to change.
Luckily for me the first time I became aware there was a conflict was the Anarchist book fair stuff. My initial reaction was to side with the TRAs, but as I read what happened I found myself thinking that something wasn't right there, especially as I've always admired Helen Steel. Next I heard about the TRA attacking a woman at Hyde Park, and this was enough for me to go reading and learning.

Anyway, my point is that I've been wrong many times in the past, and I've no doubt I will be again - we can only act for what we think is good with the understanding we have at the time. The important thing is to keep thinking and learning and listening.

Sorry, that turned into a sermon by the end. I just think Duncan is doing the right thing now, and we should be welcoming to people like him. We actually need TRAs to change their minds and should encourage it.

FuriousAndFrustrated · 07/08/2020 21:31

Incidentally there's a slight inaccuracy in his first piece - I was not instructed to remove my post, I chose to do so when threatened with the HR report as I could not risk my employment being jeopardised. (And I was furious with myself for my cowardice.)

Turns out I'm losing my job anyway as part of massive redundancies, so if it happened again I would hope to be less of a wuss!

ValancyRedfern · 07/08/2020 21:16

So glad it's been cleared up. This is a great pair of articles. I vowed not to share more GC stuff on FB after my last debacle with 2 friends (one gay one lesbian) this may just tempt me back into the fray...