A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

I read his pieces and was pleased to see that he was open to changing his mind. That takes a huge amount of courage. Very few of us routinely challenge ourselves or allow ourselves to be open to challenge as he was.

However the route he took to get to where he is now rather tells me that he didn’t actually think women were a discrete thing in and of themselves before. Perhaps as a gay man he could sort of ignore women or view them as a nice to have but not fundamental. And put them in the ‘not quite men’ bucket.

Women know they are not ‘not quite men’. Many men know that women exist as their own thing. I wonder why he didn’t ?

As for the reporting to HR - I’d be boilingly, ragingly angry if I were furiousandfrustrated

What would you expect HR to do that was more efficient? Waste more time getting involved in your non work related argument? That is the opposite of efficient, the efficient thing to do is just forget about it immediately.

I never expected or wanted HR to be involved in this situation at all.

But I think they could have at least acknowledged his email of 30th June if only to say "no action needed". Instead they just ignored it, and he had to chase it up on Friday. I'd say that's pretty inefficient of them!

I'm glad that he's changed his mind, and I do think that he's genuine about it.

However I will never forgive the fact that he reported me to HR, which led to a stressful telephone interview with them, after which they decided no action was necessary. I would still like all mention of it striking from my employment record though.

I simply cannot understand the mentality of anyone who thinks that disagreeing with someone on a topic which is known to be very polarising means that their job should be put at risk. Unless of course that belief has a direct impact/relevance to their job - not true here.

The whole thread is about a man realising that the sexualities of transgender identity varies and the one referred to here is the one he could not believe to actually make a man into a woman. The irony of Mumsnet deleting a mention of the very reason for this man's epiphany is enormous.

It simply amplifies the issue.

Yes I think so Noble. I was trying to look for a way forward out of this, which often in a dispute involves compromise on both sides. However in this instance, we need to avoid the ‘two equal sides of the argument’ fallacy in any legislative resolution of this particular situation- because of patriarchy there aren’t two equal sides. Patriarchy is why this situation arises, partly because ‘woman’ seems to be up for debate in a way ‘man’ is not.

Women’s boundaries and our rights to single sex spaces properly protected in law, would have to be a fundamental starting point of moving beyond this culture war.

The whole phrase "report to HR" sets my teeth on edge. We aren't the dinner ladies or playground monitors

Especially when the non- incident didn't even involve him personally.

I wonder if he subscribes to the Silence is Violence mantra.

I don't use any social media except a LinkedIn account which is used only for professional content. However if I did I would not have posted anything in support of BLM. (the capitalised Marxist version)

Hopefully the Eyes have other things to do on a hot day but who knows? Grudging respect to them for their dedication if so. I had been wondering if there’s a words algorithm or something at MNHQ. Which wouldn’t be great because I thought it is all about appropriate context. Not specific words. But I don’t know, it could have been something else.

ChattyLion I saw your post. You were only recounting your own experience.

I suspect that people monitor these threads and report any post that illustrates how some people transition for reasons other than genuine gender dysphoria.

Almost as though they were concerned that this would become known to a wider audience.

I haven’t had an email from HQ.

I know that some people on here have said that their posts have been deleted for using a three letter acronym. (which is not forbidden in the talk guidelines)

I used that acronym in the quickly deleted post so maybe it was that but I really don’t know. It was in context, relevant to a point I was making about why I came to FWR, before leaving a former job because of male bodied colleagues in the unadapted women’s toilets. I said that discovering those male-bodied people in the toilets next to me was an upsetting, humiliating and frightening experience for me. There is a sexualised edge to the specific scenario that the acronym refers to, which is relevant. We should be able to talk about that.

Anyway I think my main point was that, due to the power asymmetry favouring men that I mentioned upthread, that while mutual understanding is a good thing, a bedrock of very clear boundaries- like that women’s spaces must be women-only, would have to be a part of any statutory approach that successfully puts an end to this culture war.

I had said that some people won’t like that example of respecting boundaries, and suggested that if they don’t, then they should ask women how they can help in the fight against sexism and male violence.
It was my usual anodyne tone.

MNHQ why was my comment deleted? I was commenting on my own experience. I didn’t generalise it further. That is neither hateful or derogatory.

The whole phrase "report to HR" sets my teeth on edge. We aren't the dinner ladies or playground monitors. Being dragged into your fighting with co workers is the bit of the job we dread. There's only social media policies in the first place to try to keep you all from having these rows and dragging HR and managers into them. Such a waste of time.

Adults at work.

Great username Wildish
I’m all for people changing minds too, just keen to understand the whys and wherefores. I do think if people apologise sincerely that does mean something but also I get it that some things are too hard to get past on a personal level.

To add, I'm all for people changing their mind. I started off as 'why can't you be nice to these poor trans people' but I never actively tried to harm people with different opinions.

"I have now reflected and would like to remove my complaint and ensure it is not recorded on the employees record as raised by me. I no longer believe what she posted was hateful, and I was incorrect in my assumptions."

So he can write thousands of words on Medium, but can barely manage two sentences to HR after trying to get someone sacked? I remember the original thread and IIRC there were a few 'nice job you have, be a shame if something happened to it' messages to FuriousAndFrustrated, and he went to HR after only she wouldn't obey him and recant on social media. He's now on twitter saying "I am available if she needs any help" - ugh. What is it that TRAs always say about making other people do the emotional labour?

His behaviour comes across as rather performative.

Really interesting articles, and quite amazing to have the subject of his HR complaint on the board. I'm sorry your job is going, Furious I sincerely hope something new turns up sharpish.

Two things about this really stand out to me. The first is the near-demonising of anyone who disagrees with a particular ideological position, and the refusal to consider the world from their POV or even to let them speak.

The second is the importance of not blindly accepting what you are told by any organisation, especially a pressure group, or by any individual, especially one who might be wearing blinkers. I've got into the habit in the past five years or so of tracking right back into the original research. It's time consuming but if something matters enough to me, I'll check the stats and the details and the chain of events.

ChattyLion well, that's one big reason why I started coming to FWR. TRAs occasionally pop on, "unsure what the issue is" women too, lots of people denouncing FWR as transphobic. I am keen to understand the logic, mindset, attitude, whatever you want to call it, that underlies the rigid pro-self-ID, TWAW belief because I thought there must be something I'm missing?

It doesn't matter how politely or simply I question people, if they're not resorting to sex stereotypes etc they simply ignore the question. Or occasionally admit they're not sure and it's tricky but don't attempt any further teasing out of their own position.

Or some of the actual trans people think the TRAs are in no way representative of their own beliefs and experiences and keep out of all trans politics discussions/social media groups etc. These are the ones "just getting on with their lives" and I fear are left behind in all this.

@ChattyLion... that would also be interesting...

Chateau also I would genuinely really like to read someone explaining why they became a TRA or just a genderism believer and without resorting to sex stereotypes, denial of biological fact or relying on any fake statistics.