A gay man’s journey from TRA to GC

You seem very sure that every person in every HR department thinks like you. Which is pretty obviously false to many of us who have seen HR departments which don't think that way, in person.

No I am not. I've said repeatedly that HR are no more likely to believe this than the rest of the population. I know there are believers in HR. I've met them.

An HR department doesn't think with a hive mind. It's a collection of people with a wide range of politics and religion and values. We have to implement the policy adopted if we agree or not.

Social media policies are meant to try to reduce complaining. But of course they get misused. People motivated to bully will use anything.

Ultimately uni leadership cares very much about the well being of their students even if privately they consider identity to be just yet another youth movement.

But Duncan isn't a youth, he must be 40 odd. And this is not just a university problem.

Anyway, glad this thread came up so I can get this off my chest. People love a good moan about HR and I am used to that but I'm not taking the blame for this identity shit show.

And I'd add to that - my point was that he was being told by the groups meant to give advice on issues relating to hate speech, and LGBT issues, that he was doing the right thing.

That is happening in a lot of these groups, people are told to report this stuff. There are threads on it, with regard to other groups, all the time.

If we set these groups up as authorities, guess what - people will treat them as authorities.

^So after several days stewing over this I contacted my LGBT group, and our HR department.
I showed them the social media posts and asked “is this hate?”. I was aware of the hate that was covered up with concern — Stonewall had told me to beware of such a line of attack, and the trans group agreed. Yes this was hate and I should report her immediately to HR.^

He was unsure but the Stonewall advice seemed to say it was hate speech, when he contacted the relevant organisations in his workplace, they agreed.

You seem very sure that every person in every HR department thinks like you. Which is pretty obviously false to many of us who have seen HR departments which don't think that way, in person.

There's a rather unnoticed post on the 'busy' thread by a poster who has been disiplined at work in what sounds similar circumstances.

to anyone similarly affected

www.timeshighereducation.com/files/times-higher-education-v-c-pay-survey-2018-full-results-0

Here's a survey of VC pay. A quick count of women, I make it 38 out of about 170 or 180. About a fifth. Predominantly male.

I don't think people bullying other people at work is getting better or worse, it's been going on for my whole career. This particular phase of identity led bullying has been well designed by the bullies however, as organisations are literally inviting them in and paying them to do it.

The sooner it ends the better. If Duncan can realise how he's been busy institutionalising the bullying of a captive group of people who can't escape him and his peers, despite it having absolutely nothing to do with jobs or work or the purpose of organisations, then that's great.

In breakout groups during the session a woman said it's odd talking to you, you are the enemy. So that's why I am invested. This ideology, typified by agressive men, convinced they are right, have turned HR into enemies despite us not being any more convinced that men are women than the rest of the world

That’s a really shit position to be stuck in - sounds like Duncan should be considering apologising to staff in his HR department as well as Furious!

I recently found out a mum friend of mine, a university librarian, is tervey, so there must be genderwang dissent amongst lots of other uni staff - especially those not in academic roles. It’s easy to forget about people stuck in the middle, who are also unable to express their actual opinions.

Your perspective is invaluable, Port!

Yes, you are right, at least partly -

He says this was the kind of thing Stonewall said was hate, and the LGBT group and HR department at his job agreed when he asked them.

No, he doesn't say that. If you are going to correct me then perhaps it would be a good idea to use what he actually says and not what you think he said .

Interesting post and I really hope that more people will become GC when they look at the facts for themselves rather than relying on others' skewed interpretations. Thank goodness that Duncan had a track record of discussion and definitely thank goodness for Marie.

He says this was the kind of thing Stonewall said was hate, and the LGBT group and HR department at his job agreed when he asked them.

But I think that comes down to the same thing. People are being encouraged in this behaviour by groups who are considered to be experts and have moral authority. What's the point of the work LGBT group if not to advise someone about what to do when they see something that might be a problem? Many normal, nice people will think they know what they are doing, that is their purpose.

I think most of this stuff should never be resported. I think the thread about reporting the NHS women for racism was way, way out of line. But as long as groups seen as authorities on racism, or anti-Semitism, or homophobia, or transphobia, are saying it should happen, lots of people will take their advise.

He didn't ask Stonewall. He asked his own workplace trans group if thought a woman saying trans women are not women is hate speech and should be reported and unsurprisingly they said yes. So this is self appointed group of moral arbiters do something you are all referring to as "reporting" but I can only describe as spiteful attempts to wreck somones reputation and career. Not only are they doing that but also they're using HR, which by the way is a largely female occupation, to do their dirty work and by so doing are also trashing HRs reputation by dragging us in. Stonewall is brought into organisations because it's what LGBT groups demand. HR people are no more likely to believe their stuff than the rest of the population, particularly women. And so it's a double whammy for HR. We are slagged off constantly for this rubbish despite the horrible maternity policies LGBT groups demand which delete the word women making us as sick as everyone else. This is one of the most upsetting things about trans ideology, how it's led to so much animosity for HR that we can do nothing about without men like Duncan trying to destroy our careers too.

Sick of it.

I just did a quick MN search on reporting to HR. It threw up a thread where a person was concerned about a colleague posting racist posts on Facebook. Some people recommended reporting the person to HR. Some people think this is the right thing to do in that scenario, especially when it is against the company social media policy. (There were also people on the thread who thought it shouldn’t be reported to HR).

I remember that thread. There were plenty of people who absolutly thought the person should be reported, and that anyone who disagreed was clearly a bigot, and would damage others in their job through their bigotry.

I think this has been a really huge narrative in certain groups, and maybe especially among millennials and younger people, who have had it in school from quite early on.

People are being a little harsh, I think, and I really hate the whole reporting culture. ButI see this again as people giving too much moral power to a group like Stonewall, who was asked for advice on whether this constituted hate speech.

If, for example, it had been a statement that some people thought might be anti-Semitic, and they asked for advice from the WJC who said that indeed, it was, and should be reported - would a heck of a lot of people not support doing so? I think they would and people who argued otherwise might get a pretty hard time on MN, even in FWR.

That's the status and moral authority, Stonewall has had, and the place many looked to for expertise.

It really depends on whether the individual, at a basic level, "reads" the person as male or female, and that tends to be holistic, not purely focused on genital configuration. Even if only a minority read that way, it means that some people when asked can honestly say, sure, if I found that person attractive as a man/woman I'd date them. Especially with younger people in their teens and early 20s, you can have some cases of transmen who have an androgynous boy-band sort of look that some find quite attractive.

Yes of course the email from HR is ambiguous. We end up wasting time trying to soothe angry didactic bullies without actually doing anything, because they're in the wrong but heaven help any one telling them that straight, they rampage around higher and higher in organisations until eventually some belagured exec says to us just tell him what he wants to hear. Get rid of it.

So that's what we all actually think about people like you Duncan.

So this is Duncan's story. Off he goes to HR in a state of righteous rage. Demands HR bully someone on his behalf

So just another wokey- cokey, bully

Thanks @ChateauMargaux but I'm actually not too upset about the redundancy, and it's not in any way related - my entire team is out the door, not just me

"As for the reporting to HR - I’d be boilingly, ragingly angry if I were furiousandfrustrated"

Perhaps BoilinglyRaginglyAngry can be my next name

I'm still annoyed that his first essay on Medium says "I had expected to feel “righteous” as she was told to take her post down or face consequences."

No-one told me to take it down. Not him (he only "asked" or "recommended"), not HR, not anyone.

I decided to take it down after the threat of reporting to HR (which happened anyway.) Even though I believed (and still believe) that there was nothing wrong with the post and its subsequent comments, I didn't want the stress of the situation hanging over me.

I wish I could correct this on his Medium post, but there are no comments allowed, or Twitter, but I don't want to engage with him on there as I use my own name.

But I just want to reiterate - I WASN'T TOLD TO TAKE THE POST DOWN!

Thank you

@FuriousAndFrustrated I am sorry I haven't said so before, but Duncan was completely out of order to report you to HR.

It is beyond my comprehension that women reporting harassment, abuse and violence is ignored by the 'establishment' let alone this sort of misogyny and it is never recorded as hate but yet stating that women is a biological fact is deemed hateful. I will never understand it and I am sorry that you were faced with this which will have without doubt affected your entire relationship with the company you work for as well as your feelings of who you are and how you are seen at work.

I would like to ask @noblegiraffe if she thinks that Duncan really means what he says about helping @FuriousAndFrustrated and that there is the smallest possibility that her redundancy was influenced by his actions and could he please step up and fix this!!

I’m glad Duncan has written these articles and I look forward to reading the next chapters. Duncan will be able to speak to gay and bi men in a way that many of cannot because of what Bitinterested says above:

However the route he took to get to where he is now rather tells me that he didn’t actually think women were a discrete thing in and of themselves before. Perhaps as a gay man he could sort of ignore women or view them as a nice to have but not fundamental. And put them in the ‘not quite men’ bucket.

This is a phenomenon that I have observed too. Very easy to say TWAW when you don’t really think about (or care much about) what a woman actually IS.

Interesting to see the full loop of Furious’ original posts, Giraffe’s intervention and Duncan’s realisation. Definitely shows how one to one chats with the people we already have a connection to is the way we defeat this.

I was also minded of the Douglas Murray thing re: ‘well, you aren’t a REAL LGBT person anyway’ as it’s exactly like the ‘Kanye West isn’t black because he voted Republican’ thing.

I do hope that Duncan makes a first hand apology to Furious, and the stuff about HR probably not not giving a rats arse anyway is true

Stonewall published articles of transphobic attacks, the suffering of trans people and how even celebrities were showing their true hatred of people who were born different. This incited a righteous rage in me. The flag had called and I would answer.
One day in 2019 I noticed a thread on social media that a work colleague had started. It said only women born female can be women. An argument on Facebook ensued with my “side” and her “side” arguing over this point, as I tried to make her see that trans women are women, just as much as she was, and that they were the victims because they couldn’t help being born male. I was incensed at her bigotry. So after several days stewing over this I contacted my LGBT group, and our HR department.
I showed them the social media posts and asked “is this hate?”. I was aware of the hate that was covered up with concern — Stonewall had told me to beware of such a line of attack, and the trans group agreed. Yes this was hate and I should report her. Eventually I did, but even then something didn’t feel quite right. I had expected to feel “righteous” as she was told to take her post down or face consequences. She complied, I’d won and stopped hate. Hadn’t I?

So this is Duncan's story. Off he goes to HR in a state of righteous rage. Demands HR bully someone on his behalf.

We don't want to do this but men like Duncan won't take no for an answer whilst in their fullest enjoyment of their rage. HR are people too, and dealing with angry, irrational bullies who will escalate until they get what they want happens every day. Sooner or later someone has to do something to get him off our backs. Without the horrible stressful interview he wouldn't have let it go. Until men stop behaving like idiots and bullying women then HR will continue to be criticised for the behaviour of these men and the no win situations they put us in. It's not surprising no one answered his June email. The complaint is unlikely to be filled anywhere as it was not an employment issue that can legally be retained on file. It would be unlikely to find anything on file that related to his complaint.