Kate Tempest - new name, new pronouns and a haircut

I do sometimes see some odd things here labeled as gender non-conforming. Like girls who prefer pants, or play sports. Like my 70 year old mum when she was a girl, and not even considered a tomboy.

I appreciate that some things seem to have become more gendered now - mainly a marketing related I think. But it's easy when pushing back against something like that to inadvertently strengthen the tendency to think of it as "GNC".

While you might say, wouldn't it be good for girls with short hair to see role models with short hair, you could equally ask such a girl - why is hair length meaningful in the way you are saying it is? Does it really make that person different from you?

Though in truth, I think such role models do exist, often though young women who become overly focused on gender roles don't notice them, it's a sort of blind spot because it doesn't fit their pre-conceptions.

What I said is certain feminists are rather keen on making up lists of gender stereotypes (lists which are often strained to ridiculous levels) to tick off how "gender nonconforming " they are. The "I'm not like the other girls" isn't the exclusive preserve of non-binaries.

You seem to have misunderstood what is going on here. They're not doing competitive gender non-conformity, they're pointing out the absurdity of children and young people now saying that they are transgender or non-binary simply because they don't conform to gender stereotypes, which have reached previously unheard of levels of absurdity in recent years.

In my own case I "perform femininity" yet have avoided all the constraints of "wife- work" ; never occurred to me that childcare would ever be anything less than equally shared, or that my career was less important than my husband's.

This doesn't sound at all like 'performing femininity' to me. If you were doing that you would have given up your job on marriage to be a good little housewife who made sure all her husband's needs were met. You actually sound pretty gender non-conforming yourself.

I assume that what people mean by a "gender-non-conforming role model" is a woman who doesn't perform femininity

Personally I think Courtney Marie Andrews despite her extremely feminine appearance is an excellent role model. (An aside how I loathe the term "performing feminity") She went on the road, on her own at a very young age, driving herself around the US and Europe , building up her reputation as a musician, writing her own music and never once appearing in the sort of video which feminist apologists for the likes of Miley Cyrus , claim women are "forced " to make (as opposed to colluding with to boost their limited musical ability).

In my own case I "perform femininity" yet have avoided all the constraints of "wife- work" ; never occurred to me that childcare would ever be anything less than equally shared, or that my career was less important than my husband's.

Do you think feminists invented gender stereotypes?

No - what a bizarre question. I said nothing like that.

What I said is certain feminists are rather keen on making up lists of gender stereotypes (lists which are often strained to ridiculous levels) to tick off how "gender nonconforming " they are. The "I'm not like the other girls" isn't the exclusive preserve of non-binaries.

What's a "gender-non-conforming role model" when it's at home?

I assume that what people mean by a "gender-non-conforming role model" is a woman who doesn't perform femininity.

What appears to be happening is that so many young women in the public eye who don't perform femininity have started to declare themselves non-binary, and therefore that they are not women at all, because they don't 100% perform femininity, although some of them, in order to be a bit 'edgy', decide to retain a bit of femininity just so that they can be a bit different from the run-of-the-mill non-binary person who totally rejects femininity.

I'm suspicious of that term. I've said often on here that I think "gender critical" feminists are far too fond of making up lists of things which are supposed to be stereotypically for girls and stereotypically for boys.

Do you think feminists invented gender stereotypes? I think what is being pointed out here is that things that weren't gendered at all in previous decades are now being marketed as 'for girls' and 'for boys'. When feminists talk about being gender non conforming it's to point out the absurdity of gender stereotypes, which mean that children are now sometimes sent for irreversible medical treatment if they fail to conform to them.

This was never the case until the world went insane and some people decided that what sex you are (or whether you have one at all) is a choice and that your personality and interests should govern which sex you choose to be.

I don't think it's the gender crtitical feminists making up the lists of what's for boys and girls. They are mainly pointing out that people who trans their kids are very much saying the reasons are that their child likes "boy" or "girl" things. I'm not sure I've seen GC women say that certain things are for boys or girls. Surely that goes against everything we're saying?

'I just don't get how people can't see how regressive it all is'

Same here. It's so incredibly stupid, and really depressing

Oh dear, I used to admire her fiercely independent feminine nature. Definitely one of the most powerful and mesmeric performers I have seen. I suppose that won't change but I feel at some level she has jumped on a bandwagon. Or maybe that's just because I'm from a different generation and I don't understand the modern way of needing to proclaim your identity on the gender spectrum.

The point of my comment about gender-non-conforming role models was that the girls I teach who like 'masculine' (for want of a better word) style haircuts or clothes are losing women to look up to who look like them and share their tastes

The bit about "sharing tastes" still seems a bit pigeonholing. As a teenager Iooked exactly like Courtney Marie Andrews. I also adored heavy metal, heavy rock and prog- rock -genres which mainly attracted male fans. It never occurred to me I was "gender-non-conforming". I was just a hippy girl who liked heavy- metal.

For me, it's about having a role model that looks/acts a bit like you. I loved Marilyn Monroe as a teenager because I had enormous boobs and an hourglass figure and she was someone with a body like mine, unlike the 'heroine chic' Kate Moss fashions of the time. I am pretty gender conforming myself in that I wear mainly dresses, but I also never wear make-up (must be non-binary!). The point of my comment about gender-non-conforming role models was that the girls I teach who like 'masculine' (for want of a better word) style haircuts or clothes are losing women to look up to who look like them and share their tastes.

I feel like soon there will be no gender-non-conforming role models left for young girls

What's a "gender-non-conforming role model" when it's at home?

I'm suspicious of that term. I've said often on here that I think "gender critical" feminists are far too fond of making up lists of things which are supposed to be stereotypically for girls and stereotypically for boys. This has includedcthe perennially absurd one of riding a bicycle (boys) or liking music (which even more absurdly I have seen designated as stereotypically for boys and stereotypically for girls)

It strikes me that for different reasons radical feminists and trans rights activists both love rigid stereotypes; the former because they can tick off how "gender non- conforming" they are , despite many items put forward as proof of this are nothing more than things people do.

One of my favourite musicians is Courtney Marie Andrews. Is she "gender-non-conforming" enough for you (general you). She's extremely pretty, has long, straight hair (and how boringly often are there posts on here bemoaning that all young women have long hair) wears long dresses and on stage often has flowers twined round her mike stand.

She started touring round the US, solo when she was 17 and then spent years driving round Europe busking, playing in pubs, working as a back up singer and guitarist for other musicians until her own career took off.

A whole bunch of deciduous trees locally have decided that they identify as coniferous. I've sold my leaf-blower.

Just been on a teachers fb group where someone was asking for ideas for an 'inspirational people from diverse backgrounds' display. JKR was roundly rejected for her transphobic views and Kae Tempest offered as an inspirational alternative. I just don't get how people can't see how regressive it all is. I feel like soon there will be no gender-non-conforming role models left for young girls.

Saying you're non-binary when you're female is shitting on yourself from a great height, this casting off of your womanhood, its like siding with the boys that you want desperately to like you. Its the equivalent of saying 'I'm not a feminist but...'

I mean how do you even understand your body as a 'them' - how do you deal with the reality of periods and smear tests?!

Very disappointing but not surprising if you move in woke circles I guess.

I feel desperately sorry for young lesbians though - who the hell have they got to look up to now?

Her work is quite sentimental, boarding on trite but 'People's Faces' is utterly beautiful. (Bloody loath her song 'Theme for Becky though', which is some vague sort of glorification of the happy hooker).

I don't hold out much hope for future work tbh, I expect it to be self-involved naval gazing. Though this use of they 'them' suggests is already making sentences unreadable and incomprehensible.

It's such a silly affectation.

Whenever I hear her doing one of her desperate ranty ‘poems’ I just want to tell her to have a cup of tea and a biscuit and calm the fuck down.

This is the least surprising thing ever. Another wokeface telling the world how shit it is to be a non-girly woman.

Cheers for that, love.

Perhaps she is fed up with the sexist stuff she has to endure in her profession. Thinks by being non binary it will stop.

The poem isn't terribly good. I agree it's very forced

She is 34. I'd never heard of her. From what I heard on YouTube my life will not be enriched in any way by listening to her.

She has an extremely irritating voice which makes it difficult to concentrate on what she is saying.

Owen Jones seems to think he is still young. Jeez!

the same age as her

Why are these adults in their 30's considered young? Talk about extending adolescence

Absolutely! I had three children by the age of 28. My daughter is the same as as her, and is fully GC. No shit!

We're all non-binary. I suppose if you've grown up in a deeply sexist family you might not realise it.

They've had a haircut and a new nickname.

I think it is really sad that an adult woman would want to reject womanhood itself, rather than rejecting stereotypes.

Surely the gender neutral term is “it” rather than “they” ?