Kate Tempest - new name, new pronouns and a haircut

I think it's an observation that many if not most females tend not to buy into the hyper-feminine roles, as pushed by genderists

But it seems to me so often to be so superficial. I've said so often in relation to "wife- work" , child care and personal domestic issues that women need to address this with their families and partners. They can't wait for the patriarchy to be dismantled by some unknown third party. That has been met with indignation that it's not that easy- I'm victim blaming.

I'm not interested in the theory of waves of feminism and radical feminism versus liberal feminism but it strikes me radical feminism seems to concentrate on identifying issues at a class level but then falling back on some sort of vague notion it will all be better when the patriarchy is overthrown (how? when?) whereas liberal feminism, because of the individualistic element, works better on an individual level by offering practical solutions.

Oh and there is very definitely boasting involved- frequently references to things like "pink shit" "and the like.

Posters sometimes illustrate how they are not conforming to gender stereotypes because there is a narrative that gender is somehow tied innately to sex. It's just a demonstration of that. I don't think it's boasting at all - I think it's an observation that many if not most females tend not to buy into the hyper-feminine roles, as pushed by genderists.

Because 'gender' as described by many TRAs and 'non binary' people is apparently defined largely by appearance. Hence Kae's new short hair being significant, when most of us would probably just call it a haircut.

Not a real quote, but this is the sort of post I have seen people making on here. Is this what you mean by competitive gender non-conformity? If so, I would say that you have most definitely missed the point

No. What I am talking about are the posts after posts listing (indeed boasting) how fabulously "gender-non-conforming" posters are ; how they never wear dresses or heels or make-up; have short hair how they played with lego and rode a bike !! . And this does then lead on to criticism of women who waste their time on these frivolities. You, general you, will deny that happens but it does.

Yet on the other hand this raised consciousness never seems to help in avoiding taking on "wife- work" , not buying presents for husband's family, dividing child care equally. That is always too difficult because of "the patriarchy" or "female socialisation"

You really don't seem to understand what feminism is. It's not about your appearance - apart from the fact that your appearance doesn't matter

Yeah, I'm thick. Actually you are missing the point. Apearance is laboured at length on here. (Hence the lists) My point is that feminism as practised on here seems to be a tool to enable women to deal with trivial things but not to do deal with more important issues.

If feminism means you , general you , have the ability to dress exclusively from the Army and Navy stores but can't help you in throwing off "wife work" it seems a failure to me.

Christine and The Queens

She now calls herself 'genderqueer',which appears to be an alternative term for 'non-binary'.

Asked the meaning of 'genderqueer', the 31 year-old explains: "Someone who subverts gender norms and doesn't identify as either [gender]."
www.attitude.co.uk/article/christine-and-the-queens-explains-what-it-means-to-be-genderqueer-1/22160/

I think it would been more powerful to stretch the idea of what a woman is than to equate a new appearance with non binary.

Although I know I’m if my generation and education - studying feminism in the 90s

Not a real quote, but this is the sort of post I have seen people making on here. Is this what you mean by competitive gender non-conformity? If so, I would say that you have most definitely missed the point.

I don't think I've ever seen Posie Parker criticised on here for her overly feminine appearance (her views, yes - her appearance, no). In fact when anyone makes a comment about another woman's appearance it's roundly criticised as unfeminist.

There is very definitely an element of competitive gender non conformity and by implication how much more enlightened and superior they are to those of us "performing feminity".

As I've already said, any woman who sees herself as an equal to men and carves out a career in what is still a man's world is not 'performing femininity'.

You really don't seem to understand what feminism is. It's not about your appearance - apart from the fact that your appearance doesn't matter.

I can’t think of any other role models like KT that girls can look up to

Sigrid

Christine and The Queens

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm just sick of telling students 'you don't have to conform to sex stereotypes if you don't want to, not conforming doesn't mean you're not a' real' girl/boy' then the next week the example I was giving (e.g. Sam Smith, KT, Antony/Anonhi and the Johnson) comes out as trans or non binary, thus sending the opposite message to my students.

Could be, Dido. Sometimes I think we need space to simply express how these things impact us.

As a whole, I suppose solving the problems needs to address ways to improve and tackle the roots of the issues. It's a fairly enormous subject, so I'm not really surprised anyone finds it overwhelming. Maybe it's so large we can only tackle it in tiny increments, day by day, bit by bit?

I'm always happy to hear ideas, and especially to see different ways of being modelled in the course of discussion, which I've seen on here many times. Women supporting other women, refusing to be drawn into destructive patterns of argument, questioning accepted but subtle and hard-to-spot social 'rules' and roles, for example. Things that can seem quite small but I think can effect deep internal change, especially over time.

What it lacks, I suppose, is the suggestion or even consideration that other scenarios are possible

I think that's a problem some of the feminist theory on FWR. generally.

I find there's so much concentration on picking at superficial aspects (which is what I'm getting at with the lists of competitive gender non-conformity) yet at the same time a weary resignation that "female socialisation" is overwhelming.

[quote DidoLamenting]I can’t think of any other role models like KT that girls can look up to

Australian musician Courtney Barnett, also a lesbian, blows her out of the water.

@NotBadConsidering I was about to post exactly what you said about Prince’s name change being driven by dispute with label. And the idea that Prince would be GN is laughable, he was most definitely nonnconforming but never any question about his sex!

I tend to think that an approach like '13' comes out of anger and pain. It's an expression of the frustration and rejection felt on observing/feeling social pressures exerted on women. (Not commenting on the quality of the poem - she's not a poet's poet, put it that way.)

What it lacks, I suppose, is the suggestion or even consideration that other scenarios are possible. (I don't think poetry is necessarily obliged to offer solutions to social issues). And could it look deeper at why these things are issues? Or investigate a bit further than 'my feelings are hurt'?

I suppose I would suggest the poem is giving up and falling before it reaches what is, to me, the crux of art - the 'volta' or the deep change. Is that the entire poem?

I can’t think of any other role models like KT that girls can look up to

Australian musician Courtney Barnett, also a lesbian, blows her out of the water.

Reading that poem 13, which is fairly poor, it's clear that she sees women/girls as indelibly boxed into a second-rate, limited role

To be honest I think a lot of feminist thought suffers from that approach.

Yes, Chatty, I think maybe tribalism is quite intrinsic or at least a very strong impulse. I suppose it seems a bit jarring that people are rejecting one type of tribalism only to invent another (with a just as arbitrary or even less logical set of rules) - but perhaps that is just what humans tend to do.

You seem to have misunderstood what is going on here. They're not doing competitive gender non-conformity

No I have not misunderstood things. There is very definitely an element of competitive gender non conformity and by implication how much more enlightened and superior they are to those of us "performing feminity".

Sorry 'they'

How can you be a lesbian if you are non binary though? That's what confuses me. Surely she can no longer be a lesbian.

I genuinely think KT is a great artist. And a great role model for girls - happy in jeans and a t-shirt, seemingly comfortable with being a lesbian, just getting on with the music without engaging in the glamour of showbiz. I can’t think of any other role models like KT that girls can look up to. I hope KT doesn’t start to deny their sexuality. That would be sad and would send a worrying message to girls, young lesbians in particular.

I think it must be really hard for a lot of kids finding their place in the world. Social media is a constant window in on their lives putting pressure on to commit to their own likes, opinions, present in certain way and all up there on public record. Then there is time consuming maintaining and updating of it all to ‘keep up’. At any minute someone can take exception in a way that rarely happens in real life. It’s a very easy way to bully. It’s nice that they can feel connected but also it’s all a bit of a recipe for anxiety.

I’d imagine kids feel they have to constantly define themselves and feel like they should know what they want and who they are from a young age. I am not surprised if off the shelf teenage ‘tribes’ to slot into are appealing- they always were, but I can imagine social media culture makes that even more so. I feel like a lot of adults also form tribes in a similar way.

From talking to my DD I think what my generation thought of as personality, many people now filter through the lens of identity.

It seems to be perhaps about tribalism, to me. A huge need to find a way of classifying oneself. I wonder where this strong and deep need comes from - is it loss of things like nationalism and religious identity that leaves a vacuum people struggle to fill? As some group identities become weaker, people look for other group identities to replace them, perhaps?

In the case of non-binary identity, it seems to be a strong (almost violent) rejection of the rigid gender stereotypes. But for some reason it seems some find it unpalatable to stop there, so a new category is created to identify with.

What is lacking is the recognition of quite simple truths - one doesn't identify in or out of being male or female, it's just an inescapable fact. No amount of category-creation or tribal imagining will change it.

The thing, I suppose, is whether we feel our 'gender identity' affects us more than our sex. Personally I feel very little constrained by the former, having short hair, wearing usually practical clothes, acting largely as I wish. However my sex has defined my life enormously - I find it a pretty inescapable feature of living in a body.

Reading that poem 13, which is fairly poor, it's clear that she sees women/girls as indelibly boxed into a second-rate, limited role.

I also read the poem as men big each other up, women tear each other down.

Reading that poem 13, which is fairly poor, it's clear that she sees women/girls as indelibly boxed into a second-rate, limited role.

So I guess it's hardly surprising that she imagines that the only way out is to identify as not a woman, so that she can escape from the boxes she sees as inevitable.

It's quite sad that she has the failure of vision or ambition to realise that actually the boxes only exist in the imagination not in reality, and that it is perfectly possible to aim for a future in which NO WOMEN OR GIRLS are made to feel they have to limit their lives to fit inside the boxes.

Instead, she's gone for the easy, self-centred approach, that in pretending to uniquely exist in a space outside the two gendered boxes effectively announces that these boxes exist and are a reality for everyone else.

Nothing feminist about this.