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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

One in 10 women and other people with a uterus of reproductive age have the disease.

185 replies

ListeningQuietly · 05/08/2020 14:09

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/05/disgusting-study-rating-attractiveness-of-women-with-endometriosis-retracted-by-medical-journal

Should that sentence be in the article ?

OP posts:
KarenKarendson · 05/08/2020 17:06

They did not choose to have gender dysphoria.

Not all transpeople have gender dysphoria.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 17:04

@JellySlice

Obesity is something you chose. Whether you like it or not, you chose to overeat or not do enough exercise.

Transpeople did not choose the sex they were born. They did not choose to have gender dysphoria. They have taken the necessary steps so that when they look on the mirror, they see themselves presented in the gender they did choose.

If you dont want to see obesity when you look in the mirror, then lose weight. Dont expect people to call you thin if you dont try to change.

Most trans people take steps to change and fit the pronoun they prefer.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:59

If Buck wants to consider himself a woman when it comes to medical campaigns then that it totally up to him. But you'll notice that he uses male pronouns. Most women on mumsnet would refuse and call him 'her' instead.

There are transmen who dont want to respond to the word women. Using both terms (women and transmen) for campaigns doesnt exclude anyone, and doesnt confused anyone if they dont know what a cervix is. You've said as much yourself, so I'm not sure why you're arguing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2020 16:57

I don't want to be called obese, medically or otherwise. Being obese does not define me. When I look in the mirror I do not perceive myself as obese. I do not identify with obesity.

Tough. I am obese and where this fact is relevant I have to accept it. Including the use of the word 'obese'.

Yes, great analogy.

KarenKarendson · 05/08/2020 16:55

"Non binary" is a meaningless identity label that has no scientific legitimacy or relevance to medical issues. Like "Goth".

Yep

JellySlice · 05/08/2020 16:55

They dont want to be called women. Medical or otherwise.

Tough.

I don't want to be called obese, medically or otherwise. Being obese does not define me. When I look in the mirror I do not perceive myself as obese. I do not identify with obesity.

Tough. I am obese and where this fact is relevant I have to accept it. Including the use of the word 'obese'.

KarenKarendson · 05/08/2020 16:55

@BobbieDraper

I didn't say that did I. No doubt men get asked to use pronouns that are clearly inaccurate as well. It's only the meaning of woman that the woke idiots are trying to erase though. And I am not changing my language, nor will I be commanded to use language to please someone else. Not many people do pass, so if someone actually manages to get away with it, then whoopee doo for them, they can feel that little shiver of excitement that someone fell for it. Still can't change sex though, not possible I'm afraid. So in the unlikely event that someone manages to conceal the truth from a stranger, they can't hide from the truth themselves. Biology is such a bigot right 🤷

TyroSaysMeow · 05/08/2020 16:54

"One in ten females of reproductive age" would have done the job nicely.

Except we gave an inch and they took a mile.

Male and female aren't optional categories; they're not identities; they're physiological, biological realities.

Female - one word, six letters, covers every single person at potential risk of the disease.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2020 16:50

Bobbie

It's not always possible to write: "women, trans men and non binary people with a uterus" every time you need to. Even Laurie Penny realises this. So when it needs to be shorter, what will they go for if we keep pushing this line that everyone has to be included in the description at all times?

CharlieParley · 05/08/2020 16:47

BobbieDraper

I have a young female in my family who identifies as trans who does not agree with you either.

That's because this redefinition of women is primarily neither pushed by not for women who desperately wish not to be women. It is done in the interest of men claiming womanhood.

As Buck Angel, a prominent trans rights campaigner, and female transsexual pointed out this week, females who identify as trans identify out of being women because they want nothing to do with everything that comes with being female, including and especially female biology. The suggestion that it isn't just women who menstruate, who get cervical cancer or endometriosis but that men do too is offensive to Buck and many of Buck's friends who made that same journey.

So this inclusive language is rejected as offensive by at least some of the females you are so concerned about. Do they matter?

And this inclusive language means that many women will not respond to health campaigns in the way they should. Because health campaigns need to reach the largest possible number of members of the particular group you're targeting.

There are far more women who will not respond to health campaigns using this language because it sacrifices comprehension to include a minute number of females.

Let's take a health campaign seeking to encourage women to have a smear test. I just filled in a survey testing three posters seeking to motivate women to book an appointment for a smear test. Two of them did not include the word woman at all.

That's because if we concede that the word woman is no longer enough to address all adult females and a poster doesn't have the space for a women and ... phrase, the next best solution from the inclusion handbook is to drop the word woman altogether.

Now instead of using the word woman, the cervix or people who have a cervix are referred to instead.

But research has shown that just under half of all women do not know what a cervix is and that they have one. Let's say you're aiming to get one million women to book an appointment, and let's assume (very unrealistically) that every woman who understands that this health campaign concerns her own health books an appointment.

That's 500,000 who do.
And 500,000 who don't.

The UK incidence rate of cervical cancer is just under 10 per 100,000.

50 women in that second group will develop cervical cancer and may die because the health campaign was not written in a way that addressed them.

1% of the population is estimated to be trans, so let's go with that figure.

A second health campaign is addressed to women, and it is understood by all one million targeted women.

If 1% are trans and all of these individuals feel excluded by this health campaign, then

999,000 book a test.
1000 don't.

A prevalence of 10 in 100,000 females developing cervical cancer means that - statistically speaking - there is a ten to one chance that not one of the 1000 will develop cervical cancer. But let's assume one does.

So, on the face of it, the first health campaign results in 50 women developing cervical cancer because they did not get tested. The second one results in one cancer case.

Now personally while I do understand that 49 lives saved makes the second campaign better, I don't believe that we need to accept that one case happening as a result of the second campaign. Every life is worth saving.

The solution is simple: we don't have to stop with the second campaign. Just as such campaigns are often available in a number of different languages to ensure we reach those for whom English is not their first language, we can complement the second campaign with additional material specifically written to address females who identify as trans.

That is an approach which does not exclude any women, regardless of how they identify.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2020 16:46

"Non binary" is a meaningless identity label that has no scientific legitimacy or relevance to medical issues. Like "Goth".

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:44

Using a different descriptor, in this case transmen, doesnt harm anyone.

It's you who is trying to force a name onto someone who doeant want it. They arent taking anything away from you. You're trying to take their identify away from them.

They dont want to be called women. Medical or otherwise. We all know transmen have female biology so it doesnt harm or confuse anyone by using "women and trans men". It just allows people to be described by the term they chose.

Floisme · 05/08/2020 16:42

Why should we use female bodied?

I know transmen don't see themselves as the same as women. But when it comes to our biology, then that is what they are, and I no longer believe it helps anyone to pretend otherwise.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:39

@Floisme

Then use female bodied. In medicine, you use male and female. Make male and female the sex based describer.

Women and transmen may be biologically the same, but they dont see themselves as the same group. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with including both groups when discussing biology that affects them both.

Floisme · 05/08/2020 16:36

Bobbie Not all women menstruate but the only sex that menstruates are women and girls.

Also, catholic women and Jewish women are not a different category from women. It's all one category. Women.
Yes.

Transmen and non-binary are another category entirely, so they require being listed.
No. Transmen - in the context of a gynaecological condition - are not a different category. Listing them is therefore not only superfluous, it is misleading because it implies that 'women' is insufficient.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:35

@KarenKarendson

So trans people only tell women to use their preferred pronoun? Do they not tell men to as well then? Just the women?

And how do you know which pronoun to use then? When you're talking about someone and only have their appearance to go from? There are a lot of transpeople who really do pass for the gender they present as. Do you use the pronoun yoice guessed at from their appearance and then switch if you find out they were born a different sex?

KarenKarendson · 05/08/2020 16:29

And you need to listen when biological females or males tell you they want to be called by a different pronoun.

Need to? Says who? People can ask to be called by a different pronoun. They can't force other people to use it though. The more I see comments telling women what they need to do, how they need to behave, whilst removing the language used to describe women, the more I say no. I'm done with being polite now. People can identify however they want. However that doesn't change the truth, and I am not going along with the delusional beliefs of other people any more. Not happening.

DialSquare · 05/08/2020 16:29

I would use pronouns to be polite but It doesn't sit comfortably with me. I've done it in the past as I wouldn't want to cause someone distress although it seems that no one cares about the distress going against my own beliefs causes.
If I met someone born female called John, I would probably realise they had been born female as they very rarely pass. I would still call them John though as that's how they been introduced to me.
I also think that we gave an inch in this for other people's feelings and we're now so far past the mile stage that women are being arrested and losing their jobs or threatened with rape or violence so my sympathy is waning.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2020 16:27

Not all biological women menstruate. Some have had their uterus removed.
So, if you want it rooted purely in biology then saying "women" doesnt work if you only want people who still have a uterus or still have periods.

This was never an issue before this kind of transactivism was a thing. No one has ever been concerned about how women might feel about how people describe them, just like they aren't now.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:25

@Floisme

That argument doesnt really work so well though. In a medical context, women isnt correct. Not all biological women menstruate. Some have had their uterus removed.
So, if you want it rooted purely in biology then saying "women" doesnt work if you only want people who still have a uterus or still have periods.

Also, catholic women and Jewish women are not a different category from women. It's all one category. Women.

Transmen and non-binary are another category entirely, so they require being listed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2020 16:25

Removing or silencing a group to include another isnt OK. But listing all the groups.. what is wrong with that?

Because sometimes it isn't going to be possible to write a long list of extras. What do you think they will then default to? We need to get away from this idea that not mentioning every edge case personally is "exclusionary". Men's charities don't do this, generally.

Thisfucker · 05/08/2020 16:20

And you need to listen when biological females or males tell you they want to be called by a different pronoun
I will use anyone's preferred name when speaking to them and about them it might sound a bit odd and clunky but I will not lie.
Pronouns don't belong to the person, they are in the power of the speaker, not the person being spoken about.
No fucker tells this fucker that I need to listen

Floisme · 05/08/2020 16:19

[quote BobbieDraper]@Floisme

Because these exclusion.

Women and girls menstruate.

Transmen and non-binary women also menstruate.

Now, I dont want to be defined as a menstruator. I am a woman who happens to menstruate.

As long as they said "women, transmen and others who menstruate" then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But if they remove women and just say "menstruators" then I would be annoyed.

Removing or silencing a group to include another isnt OK. But listing all the groups.. what is wrong with that?[/quote]
Suppose someone were to say, 'Women and Catholic women' or 'Women and Jewish women' - there would be a lot wrong with that, wouldn't there?

In the context of a medical condition, then transmen and non binary women are already included in the word 'woman'. They may not want to be included and, as I have said, in a different context, I would respect that. But this is in the context of a medical condition where gender identify is not the issue. Biology takes precedence and the harm of adding extra words in this context is that those words imply that 'women' is not enough.

BobbieDraper · 05/08/2020 16:19

@DialSquare

You know full well that was just a random example. I then went on to ask if you refuse to use pronouns when you just look at someone, because you believe that gender stereotypes appearances do not equal sex and therefore you cannot use her/him until you know their sex?

Do you use pronouns when describing strangers, based on their appearance or not?

If you had been calling someone John and him for a few years and then found out they were born female, would you start saying her?

DialSquare · 05/08/2020 16:16

If I like the jacket I just think look at that nice jacket.