The cost

whoops, sorry, wrong thread.

And apparently gender critical women are hand in hand with and funded by ultra-conservative Christian groups in the USA. You know, the sort of groups that say women should dress modestly and obey their husbands, and can't have contraception or abortions, so obviously we'd all be in league with them.

I expect some of those ultra-Christians believe that the Earth goes round the Sun, so we'd have that in common too.

You see, Glinner, we are even cancelled for answering your question and stating our own experiences, stating facts of our lives. (Sorry, HermioneMakepeace, read your post when it was there and have no clue why it was deleted).

The cost? What is the social cost of being unable to describe your own experiences? Not just to friends or family, but AT ALL.

I've fallen out from quite a few people who don't see why I dislike being described as a "vagina fetishist". They are broadly the same people who, when my girlfriend and I first got together, were shocked that we did not identify with the entire "queer community". That I wanted to get on with my life without it being one long rainbow coloured glitter-fest.
I would call myself left wing. I support labour, I agreed with Corbyn over a lot of issues, I would generally describe myself as a very tolerant person. But now, I am somehow a right wing bigot, a transphobe, a homophobe and, by obvious extension, a racist.

OK, now I’m bloody furious! Mumsnet deleted my last post and now I am one strike away from a ban. This is not fair guys. I have no RL support, Mumsnet is my lifeline. I honestly don’t know what I would do without the support I get from here. I have re-read my post and honestly it’s not transphobic, it is just stating a fact. Why aren’t we allowed to discuss this issue? Why are we being silenced?

I worried what my friend who works in gender studies at a University thought about it. It came up in conversation one day and she thinks it is all utter bollocks but can't say anything for fear of losing her job. I feel sorry for her but so glad she hasn't drunk the kool aid. Somehow she quietly publishes stuff that is all about women. Hope she continues to get away with it.

I can't talk to my husband about it at all - he thinks it's a complete non-issue. So I feel there's this massive thing (for me) that we can just never discuss, which feels quite lonely.

My teenage brother tried to ditch me over it. I GCd. my mother and took to loudly debating it whenever he was visible or could potentially hear.

He is very woker than thou, so I also explained that gender theory is simple sexism. Then called him a sexist rape apologist... (He was defending the NATWALT idea and saying women need to be accepting because TW are so vulnerable). He hasn't spoken to me about it again.

I have discussed GC views in a seminar setting (with a somewhat supportive lecturer). I give no fucks really now. I don't discuss it on social media though, in person only, so I can defend my view point at the time and prevent untruths being ascribed to me.

Sorry, I will try again!!

In response to BluebonicPlague, I think the reasoning behind the toxic and aggressive nature of the debate is much more complex than the topic itself!

I think there are some very aggressive and combative people who just like to fight and argue. They latch onto any cause that gives them a legitimate outlet. They are shouting very loudly.

I think there are some very sinister individuals who want to break down the boundaries of women and girls, and children, for their own nefarious reasons and they are encouraging the first group of people.

I think there are some very ruthless people who stand to make a lot of money from a whole generation of young people on cross sex hormones for life and they are also encouraging the first group, and they have an awful lot of money and influence to do so.

I think a lot of this is taking place on social media where the manipulative tactics of these said individuals are only just being revealed and scrutinised.

I think a lot of public figures, politicians and activists, are giving the traffic and rhetoric on social media more credence than its worth - however, this does mean these attitudes and tactics are leaking into real life and the main stream political arena.

Your friends are becoming heavily influenced by these organisations, these activists, in turn these politicians and public figures, and are adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the first group of people thinking its a perfectly legitimate and reasonable line to take. I notice very much that there are no actual comprehensive arguments, rather scripted responses such as 'check your privilege, get educated, TWAW get over it' etc coming from the mouths of people who would never normally speak like this.

One or two people being publicly mobbed, doxxed, sacked, cancelled etc is enough to stop a lot of people from speaking out, so the counter arguments are suppressed.

Most people, I have discovered, don't really care. They won't seek out information or read blogs, articles, they are not on twitter, and quietly they will either just stick to their own opinion, which probably isn't even that important to them, or parrot what they hear around them. Therefore it's only the people who are really engaging who are being heard.

And who are they?

Well, see above.....

In reply to bubonicplague

I haven't lost any friends at all. Every single time I have talked about this subject, they have been in agreement that this ideology is misogynistic at its very core and that men are using it to abuse women and children. A lot of the time as well they haven't been aware of the issues but once we talk it through they are firmly against it,

Also said that women dying in menstrual huts in Nepal should be able to identify out of their oppression..

The person that uttered this is a disingenuous monster.

It really has the hallmarks of a kind of religious mania which has led to some sort of collective delusion.

Nicely put; it's the new religion.

I am prepared, nay, happy to lose touch with people over this.

Why would I want to be friends with raging misogynists and homophobes?

Not happened yet. Up to now it's looking like I make good choices.

Hermione totally agree with your line 'I have lost respect amongst my peers.' I feel that too. And the knowledge that on almost EVERYTHING else - Brexit, BLM, gay rights, immigration, socialism - I agree with all these friends who've dropped me, is causing me a lot of cognitive dissonance. Can they REALLY think I'm a bigot? Don't they KNOW me at all? There was a great post on twitter, basically saying, what's more likely, that a load of left-leaning women have become bigots overnight, or that maybe there's some truth in what they're saying?

There was a great article on Quillette by Rob Henderson (why can't I find the original?!) on Luxury Beliefs - middle-class and upper-class people being woke - and how it costs them nothing and gives them status, but has real-life effects on those lower down on the socioeconomic scale. I'm thinking a lot about women who parrot TWAW and what they get out of it. Women who are not trans, often straight, don't know or work with trans people. What's in it for them to throw women and girls under the bus?

These stories are heart breaking.

I do have one observation, though. As a policy, I almost never discuss this on Facebook. There’s something about doing it online that seems to inflame the tension beyond breaking point to the extent that someone will absolutely see their arse over it. I am very, very bland about the subject online, and only ask open, neutral, entirely woman focused questions on the rare occasion I do discuss. When I do discuss it in person, it’s far, far easier to have a conversation with less conflict. Even when it starts, as one did, with a friend I only see a couple of times a year, launching in before I’d even got my coat off, “So I hear you hate trans people now, Sophocles”. And this from someone I’ve known thirty years, who knows without doubt that I’m no kind of bigot on any topic. Turned out he thought I’d been brainwashed by my much more openly GC husband. Sexist, much? Should I cut him off for being a chauvinist, if this is how we’re doing things?

It is quite, quite extraordinary that the level of tolerance is so low about being able to question any part of the doctrine, and the vitriol is like nothing I’ve seen on any other topic- not Indyref, not Brexit, not religion, not race, not abortion. Nothing comes close.

Oh btw this same friend is very much into BLM but she regularly tolerates racist remarks from her friends and relatives yet she will not accept even a hint of so-called “transphobia” from me, her closest friend! I have no idea why she thinks this issue - which does not affect her personally in any way - is more important than any other and is worth falling out with me about.

I lost the only friend I have in my adopted country. She posted something like “Fuck TRFs” about JKR. I asked her what she thought was so wrong with what JKR said. Cue massive argument. I took pains to make it clear that while I am broadly supportive of trans people, I don’t agree with everything that is being done in their name, and that I don’t think people should be harassed, threatened, cancelled, doxxed or fired just for asking questions or raising concerns about certain aspects of the ideology. I naively thought I could get her to see sense by very calmly and rationally and politely explaining my reasoning, which is based in part on my experiences as a secondary school teacher. Well... she didn’t address a single point I made, just spouted slogans like transwomen are women, trans rights are women’s rights, trans people are the most oppressed group ever. She also asked if I’d ever actually met a trans person and condescendingly suggested I needed to educate myself because it was “really sad” that I felt my womanhood was “threatened” by theirs. You know, the usual shit. (It really as if they’re all reading from the same script!) In the end we agreed to disagree in order to save our friendship but weeks later, we still have not spoken. At this point I realize I cannot in good conscience remain friends with someone who actually says things like “a trans woman’s right to feel safe and comfortable is more important than a woman’s because they are more vulnerable”. I mean, seriously, WTF?! She is now posting memes with pictures of guns and slogans like “Arm Transwomen” and “Kill TRFs” (though she claims to be a liberal, tolerant, non-violent, anti-gun person) so I feel I have made the right decision in removing her from my life.

However I do worry about what she might tell our mutual acquaintances about me, and how that could affect my prospects here. I think my husband would definitely get fired from his job if his company knew what our views were, even though we are in no way hateful or bigoted.

I haven't lost any friends over it, but mostly because I socialise with a very small groups of people, and they largely agree with me on the subject. I am VERY circumspect about what I say at work. I've raised the flag a few times but no-one bites. One of the guys there is very woke but quite reasonable (I'm religious he's atheist) and I pointed out to him the logical problems with trans identity theory as well as the problems for women and his response was "it's a bit harsh of you to use science to show me I'm wrong" 😂

Bluebonic I suspect it's about what people like to believe about the sort of world we live in as well as about the sort of people they themselves are.

A lot of people are very wedded to the idea that the world used to be a terrible place where terrible things happened, but we're enlightened and past all that now. Yet slavery still happens, genocide still happens, the denial of full citizenship and personhood rights still happens. Most people want to turn a blind eye so they can still sleep at night.

It's a psychological defence mechanism. Pretend none of that could happen here and you think you're safe. The twaw mantra is part of the 'we're enlightened and so I am safe' lie, I think.

Plus most people are really shit at critical thinking and basically believe what they're told they're supposed to.

I don't think it's as simple as misogyny, though that accounts for a lot of it. Something else is going on - a need to be seen as a good, enlightened, progressive person? The sort of person who wouldn't entertain a discussion about whether women should vote, or black people be enslaved, or Jewish people be sent to gas chambers. That might sound a bit Godwin's Law, but I've heard the arguments cast in those terms.

Then there's the emotional commitment to a moral stance...

Would be grateful for any insight into the psychology here.

What I don't understand - but I have witnessed and seen myself - is why people ARE falling out about this. Who has this much skin in the game?

Be honest. We all know people who have maybe racist opinions, or homophobic opinions. Maybe they would not be openly bigoted, but the odd comment here, a snide remark there - and how many of us roll our eyes and tut but largely just ignore it?

Why has this become such a battle ground? Why do you get such abuse, such vitriol, for not believing TWAW - especially, as was in my case, from people who are neither trans or know any trans? Just like I am a Christian, but respect the rights of someone to be atheist, I eat meat but respect a vegetarian viewpoint, why are we unable to let someone else's view on this subject lie between friends?

I know the answer really, by the way....

DancingLady

Mine are grown up. Upbringing matters but dominant culture is strong.

Oh hell. The topic is way more toxic than Brexit.

I am a coward speaking about it IRL because my son is a committed TRA, politically active. He's always been a feminist and I was pround of that, but TWAW blindsided me. We had a row about this ages ago, when he threatened never to speak to me again and slammed the phone down. He's never done that before. I didn't know whether to believe him - we'd been so close - but he did speak to me again. We have just never again spoken about this, and I don't speak about it anywhere that he can see or hear me.

I have various other people in my life where I actively avoid the subject. I wouldn't broach it with anyone unless I had an inkling they could be likeminded. And very few friends with whom I can speak openly. DH is onside but thinks the whole thing is so barmy there's nothing left to discuss.