‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

#OhHolyJesus*, that is a good point. There is an aspect of forcing, almost of violence, in deciding whose views and needs are vaild and whose views and needs are transphobic. Nobody is allowed to have reservations about such a rapid change.

This reminds me of that poster in a loo which asked how to react if you see someone there you think shouldn't be there, and the answer was that you should mind your own business and let that person pee in peace.

The dilemma with that is how the female radar for potential violence then has to be turned off. I understand the goals of that poster, but they make no distinction between a trans woman entering the space or a man intent to peep or perhaps even rape. And should it actually turn out to be the case that nothing but self-identification will be required one day, well, then no person can be denied entry to that loo, even someone who is dressed male, has a beard and so on. Loos will then be mixed sex.

In other words, the demands are all from one side of the issue, and trying to point out concerns from both sides is transphobia.

When Jake said girls, in their opinion, are all about glitter and dolls but recognises that tough girls do exist, pointing to Hannah. Hmm, because Hannah is, of course, male, and was brought up with the same gender stereotypes that GC feminists are trying desperately to get away from. So most girls are about dolls and glitter but the tough girls are male.

I've woken up with something in my head.
Hannah told the superior officer about being trans and the next day Hannah came into work as Hannah.

So no time to consult with female staff about toilets or changing facilities and the female staff knew Hannah as a man. All new female uniform would be provided and in whatever way the sexes are separated in that role/regiment just applies to Hannah as female straight away.

No GRC at that time obviously as you have to live in 'acquired gender' for two years and this was overnight in Hannah's own words.

This isn't about Hannah being a sexual threat to those women and I'm sure many of those women who knew Hannah before Hannah was Hannah would be fine with it, but others would feel really uncomfortable and it's those women I'm thinking about.

In this section of Mumsnet a transwoman told me their infertility was sadder than mine because at least I had a womb. He'd fathered children.

I'm still angry.

Spa day not soa day

Hannah, trailing behind with the massive pile of luggage...

What did they do with their car, if they flew back?

I really liked Hannah.

Jake made me furious. The description of the egg harvesting and how it was invasive and an unpleasant procedure and environment for a man. Obviously for women it is like a Soa day.

And how he loves his muscled body and couldn’t possibly have his smooth 6 pack abs ruined by bearing a child. That is for mere women....

And as for the dismissive stuff about girls and glitter, from someone who grew up as a ‘tomboy’ girl. There seemed to be so much internalised misogyny at work in Jake. Enough to have driven his transition out of being a woman. That worries me far more, in a parent if a girl, than a parent being trans.

Hannah seemed much more centred in her Trans-ness, matter of fact about male puberty and hands and jaws, etc.

Dog breeding rules.

I thought Jake came across as an aggressive control freak. The way they marched into the hospital, carrying the car seat, within a couple of hours of Millie being born made me feel so sad for Laura. DH said they looked like a couple of child snatchers.

I was shocked to learn that they'd only known Laura for 2 weeks before she agreed to be the surrogate and wasn't she pregnant a couple of weeks later? That's so irresponsible to me.

The illegitimacy of the ‘Rumplestiltskin’ Surrogacy consultation www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

Here are links to a couple of the old threads.

The Rumplestiltskin Law www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Law

From the consultation paper. Some commissioning parents attempted to itemise the costs. Others simply wrote "expenses incurred" with no detail. I don't think I've seen any evidence of courts questioning payments. (Although I'm sure the tax man might want to see some receipts....).
The fact is, the British concept of altruistic surrogacy is a complete fiction.

The whole situation is selfish. Everything is either about money or gratification. The best interests of the child created just don't get a look in.

@IloveJKRowling there were quite a few threads in the run up to the surrogacy Consultation last autumn. The kennel club certainly was discussed - the consultation does not propose limiting the number of times a woman can be a surrogate mother. There are at least a couple of UK surrogate mothers who have had multiple surrogate babies, Carole Horlock who has had 13 I think and Jill Hawkins who has had 10 and nearly died having the last set of twins.

The kennel club restrict breeding from dogs to just four litters to prevent breeding bitches being exploited....
The law limits licensed dog breeders to using a bitch six times, but the kennel club are more strict, so for pedigree dogs they won't register more than four litters.

But women can keep being bred from till their body packs up.

It's all just so convoluted.

Really what's been going through my head watching this is that old Kirsty McColl song: There's a guy works down the chip shop, swears he's Elvis.

I mean yeah ok so you're a guy apparently but you've got embryos and you're a woman with no female organs but that's the same as being female and infertile and oops look over here there's the mother, no don't look too closely.

Anyone else spend £15k on pregnancy (no buying cots and baby clothes etc remember)?

That's exactly what I was thinking and so was wondering is that figure is a set figure by law or something? Who spends 15 grand on being pregnant?! Nothing to actually buy for the baby and the actual IVF is separately funded. Did the embryo implanting take place in NI? So did she even have any real travel expenses?

15 grand to a single mother living in Belfast is quite a lot of money really isn't it?

Off the topic of surrogacy but I'd be interested to know how many gay, lesbian bi members of the armed forces have been awarded an MBE for their services to LGBT in the military.

I noticed that. I wonder if Hannah got any medals for going to Afghanistan. I can't see the two awards equate.

The power dynamic was fascinating to watch, how they dealt with stress and supported each other but also wound each other up (like any couple

This I did find interesting. There was a lot of play acting going on - in terms of stereotypical gendered behaviours/mannerisms. Interesting also, that Hannah drove the car, not Jake.

The whole "expenses" think is a massive exercise in creative accounting.
Anyone else spend £15k on pregnancy (no buying cots and baby clothes etc remember)?

I spent maybe £200 max on clothes, new bras and treated myself to a lovely floaty dress I wore about once as it was a bloody awful wet cold summer. Other clothes passed around between friends.
Petrol for trips to clinic. £200 max I should think.
Struggling to think of any other expenses specifically pregnancy related and not related to the baby or afterwards.

Also total cost £45k

The fertility clinics are big business. That's where the money goes.

Off the topic of surrogacy but I'd be interested to know how many gay, lesbian bi members of the armed forces have been awarded an MBE for their services to LGBT in the military.

It's tricky, they do seem to be very in love and Hannah seems quite sweet, and it was sad when Hannah was saying that she never bothered freezing sperm because it never occurred to her that she would find love

I didn't see it so much as Hannah thinking they "wouldn't find love", so much as Hannah couldn't imagine a time that they might want children.

My friend had a baby with a donor egg. Her DS has always known this age appropriately. To be honest he would have found out sooner or later as he has very distinctive features which look absolutely nothing like his mum or dad, so must look very much like the egg donor. But even if not, my friend always said that she would never keep something like that from him.

I am really interested in what Jake and Hannah will tell Millie about her origins? Presumably they will just have to come completely clean from the off, because there is surely no way that as Millie gets older she would ever believe that Hannah is a biological woman anyway?

As Jake is an actor Jake is primary carer I believe and yes the biology element of being related to the child took over there. Jake held Millie first, took her into the home first, Hannah appeared very much in the background.

Hannah has the office job, although working from home during lock down I'm sure, Hannah will be expected to have a more 'brining home the bacon' role I suppose, with a streaky job in financial services. Would Hannah get mat leave? I agree with PP, I don't think Hannah is a biology denier from that programme but Hannah also referred to being like an infertile woman for Lorraine. It's pretending one thing for the cameras but believing something else. The military is a very disciplined, straight forward place to work.

The power dynamic was fascinating to watch, how they dealt with stress and supported each other but also wound each other up (like any couple).

They have both had a lot of change in their lives, transitioning and jobs changes (Hannah), house move, rapid romance, marriage and now a baby.

IDK I can't stop thinking about Laura.

I just felt like the while thing was about what was best for them, not what was best for the baby. So it would be awful if the baby breastfed or had skin to skin with someone else FOR THEM

Clearly Jake wants to be the 'mother'. I get that. Who wouldn't want to be the one to bond with their child? (And the child is genetically Jake's).

i thin

What are the chances of this baby growing up completely comfortable with their biological sex

I think it is possible, and also my best hope, that Jake will find having a daughter a healing experience, and that Jake will be able to make peace with themselves through this experience. Hopefully they will let the child just be themselves, and not foist rigid stereotypes, or alternatively try to counteract stereotypes by foisting the opposite.