‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

What would have happened if the surrogate had changed her mind after the birth? When she was sat in hospital with the new baby, when Jake and Hannah weren't allowed in. Could she have called the whole thing off and handed back the cash? How would that have worked?

I haven’t watched the programme and don’t know if I will. Having been through a very difficult time conceiving, including going through 2 mc, and having recently given birth to DS I think I’d find it a very difficult watch.

I have seen the trailer though and it made me feel quite sad that this is framed as a ‘miracle’. If those two people hadn’t wilfully destroyed their own fertility chances are they could have conceived their own children naturally. But I doubt that the programme attempts to address this in any real way (please correct me if I’m wrong about that).

I had a fallout with my sisters over my thread on Westlife as they all (high achieving mothers and feminists) feel we should be kind to gay men - even at the expense of our rights and those of our daughters.

It's no longer a question of just being kind either. Surrogacy has been reframed as a civil right for infertile straight people/couples and gay people/couples.

There was a recent judgment by Lady Hale (I think) that set a precedent for the NHS to pay for surrogacy. In this particular case it was money to pay for 4 surrogate pregnancies in California. The case was part of a medical negligence lawsuit for which the woman also received damages for loss of fertility. Whilst I have some sympathy I find it shocking that essentially the court ordered the British tax payers to fund treatment abroad that at the time of the judgement (and still now) is illegal in this country.

Then of course the LGBT surrogacy lobby have been working very hard to reframe the concept of surrogacy as a civil right for all LGBT people almost as an addendum to marriage equality. It's framed as a 'right to family life' but by approaching that way it means that some people will have a legal right to access and commodification of women's bodies and this will end up being written in legislation.

Once this happens it becomes big business as it is in California and will require a constant stream of young women to be pressured and/or enticed into both egg donation and surrogacy. Both these things are high risk and potentially fatal. Not to mention the psychological damage.

All this is without even touching on the rights of children.

It's truly sickening and the people that own the clinics will become disgustingly rich from it.

Jake can't bear to be a woman (for Jake there is something inherently bad about being a woman) and Hannah can't bear to be a man (because men can't be gentle and feminine and wear feminine clothes).

I do sometimes wonder whether some girls and women are running away from being females while some boys and men are running towards a feminine identity. A repulsion vs an attraction.

I am continually struck by the fact that MTF and FTM are not mirror images of each other. They are quite different things.

Its funny how gay men or trans people seem to know what female biology is when they need a female for surrogacy.

I know right - no hand wringing about 'what even is a woman anyway?' when they need one to carry out a specific function for them. It's fucking grim really isn't it?

Name change because this is outing but just wanted to say that it's interesting how we have such a clear understanding of the needs of livestock with respect to their mothers but we are happy to dismiss this with humans.

For example, we understand in a lot of detail the needs of calves immediately after birth and the role of the mother in that. New born calves are licked clean by the mother immediately after birth which important in kick-starting their breathing and suckling. If humans have to intervene in this process (e.g. because the mother has had a difficult birth) there will be concerns about the calf's long term health. Equally it is absolutely vital that calves get enough colostrum in the first few hours immediately after birth otherwise the calf has much less chance of a healthy "productive" life.

Without wanting to sound too hippy about it, in this age of technology and medicine we seem to have divorced ourselves of our essential nature. We've forgotten that we are mammals and we have base needs. For this reason I can't support surrogacy.

Its funny how gay men or trans people seem to know what female biology is when they need a female for surrogacy. I havent watched the programme and dont intend to but do am curious to know how they know whether they have a boy child or a girl child, has the baby revealed its gender identity yet by choosing pink or blue or have they judged its gender aka sex by its genitals ?

@Haworthia - I started the original thread on the Westlife surrogacy because that photo stuck in my craw. I am a lifelong opponent of surrogacy and like with the Trans issue, most of the people on the other side seem to be the same people - men who hate women and want to destroy us and women who "want to be kind".

I had a fallout with my sisters over my thread on Westlife as they all (high achieving mothers and feminists) feel we should be kind to gay men [confuse] - even at the expense of our rights and those of our daughters .

But they all use the same arguments as the women who do not want to be against trans rights - once again, I believe, because a powerful male funded media lobby has erased our ability for critical thought on these subjects which are both about taking away the hard earned rights of women which started with the suffragettes.

Is it “work” though? I personally don’t believe surrogacy is work any more than sex work is work.

Well exactly, the 'altruistic' surrogate isn't actually supposed to be 'working' it is supposed to be an entirely voluntary role. I wonder if even 'expenses' weren't allowed (like I said, who spends 15 grand on a pregnancy - surely we are talking hospital parking fees and travel, maybe some breast and maternity pads, some maternity clothes, vitamins, it's a few hundred quid at most?) how many 'altruistic' surrogates would come forward? It's exploitation.

Has there even been a study done on demographic of surrogates, paid, 'expenses covered', and completely unpaid ?

£15k equates to £2.20 per hour for 40 weeks of work. Not exactly a fair price to pay to someone who is risking their health massively both physically and psychologically.

Is it “work” though? I personally don’t believe surrogacy is work any more than sex work is work.

It also makes me think of that photo that Mark from Westlife put up when he had a baby using a surrogate - him and his partner wheeling a cot away with their backs to the camera, as if they are driving off in a new car or something.

It was even worse than that. Their arms were raised in the air in triumph. That was always the most fucked up thing to me.

Oh, I don't know why I assumed it was Hannah? I thought maybe because Hannah sees themselves as the 'mother' and had been complaining about feeling left out earlier in the programme.

I think I missed will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful! Did Hannah say that when they were in the car on the way to the hospital?

I think it was Jake who said that.

I was interested in Hannah's parents too. They seemed like really nice people, but I wonder if they were quite traditional and whether Hannah was brought up with quite rigid ideas of boy and girl? I don't know.

I agree it would be interesting to do some sort of study about stereotypes children who grew up to be trans were brought up with. We have seen it with Jazz Jennings, Paris Lees said they weren't allowed to play with dolls as a child, an awful lot of these 'trans kids' have stories of how the loved dolls/dresses/princesses etc.

I didn't watch it - though I might on catch up.

Surrogacy, to my mind, is always wrong. Yes, even when it's someone's sister/cousin/friend 'doing it for' someone who is unable to have her own baby. To deliberately create a baby's life in order to remove the baby from the mother is to deliberately mess with the early emotional and psychological and physical needs of the mother and baby.

In extreme situations, it's necessary to separate mother and baby, I know. But it is never done lightly.

In this particular situation, Jake and Hannah seem to think of a mother as a commodity, and to have some firm ideas of what behaviour to expect from what sex. If this baby likes the 'wrong' toys or clothes, will they assume 'trans'?

I think I missed will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful! Did Hannah say that when they were in the car on the way to the hospital? I was talking briefly to DH about something else....

What an awful thing to say! This baby has been inside Laura for 9 months, pretty well 'latched on' via an umbilical cord. So what, as soon as they don't need Laura anymore, the idea of Laura having any sort of bond whatsoever with the baby is 'awful'?

And what about the baby? Would it be 'awful' for Millie to latch on and get a bit of colostrum? Who exactly would it be 'awful' for? I know emotions were high but I just think that is a really stupid thing to say, would Hannah and Jake even be aware of how it comes across?

There is a sense of real entitlement that is coming up through the next generation of people - I think Jake and Hannah are early thirties aren't they, so I guess they would be at the older side of that?

Someone once said about trans activism 'this is what happens when you have an entire generation who have never been told no' and it does seem to be coming to pass doesn't it?

It is never ever justifiable to remove a newborn from their Mother. To deny them the chance to breast feed & have colostrum, which we know is of huge benefit to babies development. No one is advocating for the baby in this situation. I hope Laura is ok & I hope this baby has a happy life, though I fear it will be challenging as her parents have chosen to live very much in the public eye.

It seems from what people have said that Hannah has a real dysphoria, where as jake seems to believe that they can't be tough and manly and do what they want to do and be a woman, he also seems to have a real hatred for women. That seems to be more learnt rather than inherent inner feeling.

I'm not sure about that. Hannah mentioned dressing up in 'women's' clothes when alone, but then came out as trans when put in a situation where there was nowhere private to do this.

Jake seems to be someone who is full of internalised misogyny. I wonder what happened in Jake's past to cause that?

I see a lot of similarities in them - Jake can't bear to be a woman (for Jake there is something inherently bad about being a woman) and Hannah can't bear to be a man (because men can't be gentle and feminine and wear feminine clothes).

I wonder how many trans people grew up in households with very strict gender stereotypes and how many grew up with no emphasis on gender roles.

It would be a really interesting study. The same with looking at mysogany in the home.

It seems from what people have said that Hannah has a real dysphoria, where as jake seems to believe that they can't be tough and manly and do what they want to do and be a woman, he also seems to have a real hatred for women. That seems to be more learnt rather than inherent inner feeling.

Thanks to everyone who watched this programme so I didn't have to

I've not seen the show yet but this quote made me want to cry

will the baby latch on to her breast? That would be awful"

So little care and regard for the babies needs and feelings.

We watched a baby be born on somthing the other day and I said to dh, birth must be so scary for the baby. Getting latched on or at least cuddled up to the only familiar thing they know - their mum must be so important to them. But these people don't give a shit. The baby is like a toy to them.

I was seperate from my own dd after a cuddle and a feed to go to surgery. She was hysterical and didn't calm down until brought into the recovery room with me still passed out. All a newborn wants and needs is its mum.

£15k equates to £2.20 per hour for 40 weeks of work. Not exactly a fair price to pay to someone who is risking their health massively both physically and psychologically.

No, but a £15k lump sum to a single mother living in Belfast would be a bit of an incentive I think? 'Altruistic surrogacy' my arse.

I know (through social media) of a couple who cannot have kids themselves because cancer and treatment took away her ability to ever carry a child. They have just had a baby with her cousin as a surrogate. Throughout the process they have always thanked the cousin repeatedly and emphasised what it is she is doing for them, and when the baby was born they put up pics of the cousin cuddling the baby as well as them. Obviously they haven't gone into great detail about the arrangements, and I don't know what kind of relationship they will have with the surrogate going forward, but it did all seem very positive.

That seems a bit of a world away from this, where they stormed into the hospital, the bit about 'the mother is sitting in the car' (WTF?!), and the baby was back on a plane seemingly within hours. I wonder what kind of role Laura will play in that child's life? I can imagine the contact waning as 'busy lives' take over.....

It also makes me think of that photo that Mark from Westlife put up when he had a baby using a surrogate - him and his partner wheeling a cot away with their backs to the camera, as if they are driving off in a new car or something.

It really was interesting how Jake appeared to be so much more natural with the baby wasn't it? Obviously it's just one case so you can't take too much from it, but it was very striking.

The question is what does 'mother' and 'father' mean ? It doesnt mean anyone who identifies as such, as how can you identify as something which you cant define. I thought it was very interesting in the short clip i showed that jake appeared more natural when holding the baby than hannah. Must be something to so with that female biology

I don't know how it would've been handled had there have been women already in the regiments.

Wolf did you set up a new thread? I was looking for it because I have some different views to what you’ve said about reproduction and would be interested if there’s a thread to chat about that.

I will try to find time to watch the doc, thanks for flagging it OP.