‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

From the ITV website:

Hannah said, "The main thing our documentary will hopefully do is show that surrogacy isn't this seedy, underground thing, and actually it's a really lovely thing that benefits both parties."

The couple chose their surrogate Laura after several months of failing to 'click' with anyone
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It definitely didn't show me that both parties benefitted. I thought it was a pretty poor documentary, very low on facts and very much focused on feelings - those of the transgender couple rather than Laura's, obviously. Which sums up trans rights activism nicely, I think.

The desperation to mould this transaction into a normal pregnancy experience was obvious throughout, and the histrionics whenever reality broke through - not being there for the birth for example, and the possibility that the baby might want to breastfeed . The insistence that Hannah - who had no biological connection - was the mother, and Laura, who had actually used her body to turn an embryo into a baby with lungs, eyes, a heart, kidneys, etc., wasn't.
Jake also using the term "cooking" to describe what the surrogate does to the baby. It's so disingenuous. That baby was literally built from Laura's body, and Jake describes it as that just being the "cooking" process, as though to downplay her absolutely huge part in it.

Also Jake's comment that "as a man" it was unpleasant to go through the medical process of removing his eggs. As though for a woman, that kind of intrusive process is all fun and games, and just what women should expect.

I actually did feel sorry for both Hannah and Jake. They both seem to have struggled a lot. I just don't think the turmoil of gender identity issues justifies the use of a woman in that way, and I found them self-absorbed and desperate to distort the reality of what was happening into something that they found more palatable.

I just think it's telling that she phoned them once she'd given birth. Normally they'd at least know when she started being in labour. Don't know what was going on behind the scenes but it was interesting...

Maybe Laura is like that, she'd already given birth twice so knows what her preferences are, and maybe by that point she had realised that it would never be about support for her but just about spectating and telling her what to do.

Good point, can you imagine having Jake present while you are trying to give birth?!!!

I don't understand why some women want a whole raft of people at their birth (not a criticism) I had DH but I actually just needed to focus on the job in hand. Didn't want or need lots of people there purely to "watch" Maybe Laura is like that, she'd already given birth twice so knows what her preferences are, and maybe by that point she had realised that it would never be about support for her but just about spectating and telling her what to do.

When I was in for my 3rd the MW's joked about the "troublesome thirds" * and how often that delivery ends up very different to 1&2. I know that is just their opinion, but I guess also their experience shows maybe some truth. So I wonder how Laura is, even if her children were straightforward there is no saying this one was.

• She really was troublesome. A definite force to be reckoned with.

I got that too king even though it was strict lockdown, birthing partners were allowed at the wishes of the mother, during active labour. I do think it depends on the hospital but had Laura wanted Hannah or Jake there (only one) the midwives would have done their best in sure to accommodate them.

Maybe it's different in Ireland but other babies, surrogate or otherwise, were born during Covid and birthing partners have and are permitted to be there.

As Laura had them there for the implantation part it made me wonder.

I did get the feeling that the hospital were wise to Jake and Hannah and were trying to ensure that Laura came first.

Well I hope all four parents will be very happy with the lovely child.

The conversation in the car about "the mother is sitting next to me" really shows up the unpleasant bludgeoning of people to change normal everyday language to fit this alternative reality. Jake phones midwives in a maternity ward about a mother who has just given birth and angrily corrects them for saying mother.

Give it a rest, you have just both spent half a programme talking about Hannah choosing not to save sperm and how you have donor fertilised your eggs for implantation. You are literally selling this information to the public over and over for years and yet you can't even let a maternity ward midwife refer to the surrogate mother as the mother in a phone call clarifying who you are there to see without getting nasty. It's this disrespectful mendacity that's so upsetting. Leave the bloody language alone and get over yourself.

Saw this yesterday, relates to Ukraine so will also post elsewhere. The reason why I post it here is there is a surrogate mother who says it is 'addictive', she compares it to a casino.

www.rferl.org/a/nobody-s-child-inside-ukraine-s-controversial-surrogate-adoption-industry/30755463.html

I suspect that those who do it for altruistic reasons, or those who think they do, also enjoy the glory (if that's the right word), the constant comments of how amazing it is, what a generous and kind woman she must be. This message is what we here from same-sex parents on instagram, in the women's magazines, on Lorraine and in most TV coverage.

The 'serial' surrogate mothers keep doing it despite risks to their health. There's the money sure, but there is more to it than that. It's a void to be filled.

It's not much different to puppy farms who use carefully curated social media to promote themselves. Everyone is a sucker for cute babies whether they be human or animal. It doesn't change the unethical exploitation behind the pictures.

I find it weird and guilt trippy when photos of babies are posted next to the pride flag etc (or any endorsement of LGBT/surrogacy like this).

It is a way of shutting down conversation by saying, 'Look at this cute baby who wouldn't exist if it were for your bigoted views'.

I have just received this treatment on another thread where I started I am against donor/surrogacy. A poster was telling me about her donor conceived child who 'I want to wish out of existance' or some such nonsense.

Babies should not endorse anything political because they cannot consent to it. We have no idea what the baby's views will be when they're older

Alabamawhirly1

The account given here gives a thoughtful explanation as to why a woman might choose surrogacy (apart from the money).

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Personally I think you must not be 100% ok to go through that for 15k.

I often think this more about altruistic surrogates. Especially when it's for strangers. What happened to you that you feel you need to help/please other people that much that you'll put your own health on the line. Even a straightforward pregnancy is not without its sacrifices.

There's a good doc on YouTube that focuses on paid surrogates in the USA. The woman on the whole seen young, nieve and to have been brain washed by the "just carrying it" "I'm not the mum caz it's not my egg" narrative. But on the whole, they just need the money. 20k is alot of money to a young mum working two minimum wage jobs and in debt.

It also annyos me that no one speaks about the additional risks associated with carrying a pregnancy from a foreign egg. Or the risk of donating eggs.
Especially when most of the time that is done purely so the surrogate feels disconnect to the baby inside her.

Cute baby.
Will she be able to trace her biological father if she wants to?
Im not sure it was mentioned.
There are 3 people more connected to the little girl than Hannah is, i think she knows that and i doubt she will ever feel like a mother.
I hope it's not too hard for her, shes obviously a sweet caring and good person and im sure she will love the child.
The whole situation is sad all around really.

The car situation really bugged me.
Did they hire a car?
They didn't want to get out of the car but were happy to take a newborn baby on a plane days later.
Jake did say to Laura's kids look after mummy and our baby.
He didnt come across well, very self centred and dismissive of Hannah at times.
I really hope Laura is ok, the expenses should cover counselling really, before and after.
Personally I think you must not be 100% ok to go through that for 15k.
Im poor and I wouldn't do it for 100k

In the programme The Baby Has Landed iirc the surrogate mother was a work colleague of the intended parents. Meaning the employer could get hit with a double (?triple) whammy of maternity/paternity leave for everyone.

Hannah Graf MBE now works for HSBC Private Banking. A Stonewall Top Global employer. I doubt Hannah would be excluded from maternity leave.

Just because you can rent a womb doesn't mean you should. 😢

My understanding, for the U.K. at least Chatty is they are entitled to mat leave but I imagine it is negotiated as 9 months off is a bit of a joke if you're not actually looking after the child.

If surrogacy is set to increase, given the law commission's proposals, companies will have to write in clauses in Mat leave policies specific to surrogacy.

Of course many women (like Laura? Her employment wasn't discussed) are unemployed but as payment are made monthly it has a knock on effect with benefits and you have to be careful it's not seen as income, although that must be hard as 15k for 10 months is 1,500 and that would show up in bank accounts statements at for JobSeekersAllowance etc.

I guess also child benefit would need to go to the legal parent which would be Laura until it was changed, at around 6months?

I just looked up the maternity leave arrangements applicable:

maternityaction.org.uk/advice/time-off-and-pay-for-parents-in-surrogacy-arrangements/

There isn’t generally equivalent paid time off for IPs in surrogacy, as there is with maternity or adoption. There isn’t the physical recovery from birth to consider but any parent needs time to be with their new baby so using up all your annual leave seems like a bit of a grim alternative.

I also do wonder what pressure is on women who are surrogates and who have an employer, to get back to normal work quickly, despite being eligible for maternity leave.

That's the point at which I had to turn it off, when Laura's kids were being asked by Jake to look after her.

Did Jake say that?! Urgh.....

I'm offended on your behalf jcurve that Hannah compared their personal ability to carry a baby to the same situation as women like yourself.

For all Hannah's good points and general display of being reasonable, it's something I won't forget.

It is not the same. It can never be the same.

*language (not managing)