‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

As the Graf's announced a while ago that they intend to have another child via surrogacy I had a dig around Instagram and found this.

I take exception to Hannah's statement here

1. Not all women can have children and it isn't a 'core thing' that people expect women to do (sort of weird to think that this is what women are for, lots of women can't or don't want to.)
2. Being the odd one out in a room full of pregnant women would be down to obvious reasons..."I'm a woman who can't give birth"
3. "There are lots of different ways to have children", well there's only really one way to have a child, though there are several ways to get a child.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ-52Zpj8lZ/?utmmedium=copyy_link

I started a new thread for this but could have just left it here...an altruistic surrogate mother who is carrying a baby for her sister, having previously had twins for money.

Her sister and BIL don't want her to kiss her boyfriend for fear of the baby catching something...

Surrogacy Contracts - YouTube video - US www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3986438-surrogacy-contracts-youtube-video-us

This it the issue, there is no 'good type' of surrogacy. Commercial surrogacy is open to financial abuse, and 'altruistic' surrogacy is open to emotional abuse.

Exactly no matter how its done, there is always going to be someone coming out damaged, hurt or exploited. If not the mother, the child or females as a whole.

can’t afford adoption or to pay a surrogate? Inseminate your sister in law at home for free!

This it the issue, there is no 'good type' of surrogacy. Commercial surrogacy is open to financial abuse, and 'altruistic' surrogacy is open to emotional abuse.

Her “auntie” is really her mother
One of her dads is really her uncle
Her “cousin” is really a half sibling

It's a bit eastenders isn't it.

How will the child feel knowing mummy gave them away. No matter how much your uncle and dad loved you. You would always feel that your the one that mummy gave away, she must not have loved you enough. If you were more lovable maybe she would have kept you.

Well her egg was fertilized by her brother's partner's sperm, not by her brother's sperm. Which would be incestuous and genetically inadvisable of course. Did you misread?

@Pemba I understood what Wolfgrrl was getting at, and it’s - as ever - the baby that is forgotten about.

Her “auntie” is really her mother
One of her dads is really her uncle
Her “cousin” is really a half sibling

Will she ever miss having a mother figure, and wonder why she was conceived to be given away?

It’s telling that it was also a money saving exercise - can’t afford adoption or to pay a surrogate? Inseminate your sister in law at home for free!

I’m sure they’re all lovely people and it was done with the best of intentions, but the child and their feelings/identity always comes last.

Talking for the need to rapidly have more surrogate children, I know Michael from TwoDads has said he wants a third. I'm sure their surrogate mother Caroline will oblige.

I wonder where it comes from? The surrogate mother getting older, the ageing embryos on ice, them ageing themselves.

As you say Fanny surrogacy shouldn't be a career choice. People forget how dangerous pregnancy still is. I hope Laura doesn't feel she has to do it again, and that if she wants to it's not because of the money. She's only in her 30s! I also really hope she isn't pressured to do it before she has fully recovered. The author of Unexpected Mother was starting contracts (US) and treatment 3 months after the son was sold to the couple, they later split and she was left with twins (it was triplets really but they chose to kill one in the womb by fatal injection).

I had never thought of that point Collidascope. The ‘just try harder’ argument is purest bullshit and you’ve shown that up beautifully here.

No person who is GC would ever say ‘just try harder‘ to anyone else about something physical because our view is rooted in biological reality.

But surely the genderists who use that argument do then need to apply ‘just try harder’ to themselves about other biological features? That’s assuming that they actually believe it of course. Which they must do, to compete in good faith with women athletes in women-only competitions. Biological limitations are just a choice.

So, those who take that view, should consistently take it, in any situation relevant to their natural, sexed physical body.

So that should include all the situations in which genderists are not ‘winning’ something, or are not coming out on top in some way, because of the natural sexed physical body that they already possess.

Otherwise that ‘try harder’ argument looks like sailing embarrassingly close to hypocrisy and self-serving individualism at the expense of others (usually women), doesn’t it..

Career surrogacy. More 🚩 than a bunting factory. Shame on the fertility clinics that facilitate this.

abcnews.go.com/Health/biggest-surrogate-mom-jill-hawkins-pregnant-9th-10th/story?id=15803413

also not having to consider the strain on you're own body, why not keep churning them out.

They just treat surrogate mothers like a baby factory. I find it even more shocking that the fertility clinics encourage and facilitate this - surely they understand a bit about obstetrics and the risks to the mother and by default risks to the baby if the mother's health is compromised?
And some women do find it addictive - there's a lot of psychological issues that come into play. This is why, if we are to have legal surrogacy in the UK, women should be limited to no more than two (which allows for a sibling). Making it a career should not be an option. Though I predict Laura will be. Career surrogate mother.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/pressure-to-have-multiple-babies-putting-surrogates-at-risk-1.5459957

@Pemba

No I knew her egg wasn't fertilised by her brother.

But I found it shocking because she was handing her own baby over to her brother to raise.

I suppose when a surrogate doesn't use their own eggs, at least there is that small degree of separation that the baby isn't biologically theirs.

But in this case she is literally having her baby taken from her at birth, I just find it incredibly distasteful and cruel.

My dB struggled to conceive and I dreaded being asked (not that he I don't think).

I'm not an overly caring generous person. But I would still have felt a certain amount of guilt saying no.

I wonder how many relatives or siblings do it purely put of guilt?

Laura may have had an form of induction where they use a drip in your hand. Not a plesent way to give birth. Having another baby for them? They've only just got this one and already they are rushing for another. I've seen that a lot with surrogate parents. Smacks of greed to me and also not having to consider the strain on you're own body, why not keep churning them out. In reality (if feeding naturally) your body won't let you have babies that close together.

Sorry. I keep typing an i instead of an o.
"If" instead of "of".

I accept there have been some successful and happy sibling surrogacy arrangements.
I still think there are too many ways it can go wrong from family coercion to actual harm (birth injury etc) to the mother. It's too much to ask if your sibling. I have told my daughters in no uncertain terms they are not to ask this if each other should one of them suffer infertility.

This brother / sister arrangement nearly lead to family breakdown, it was the grandmother (who was shocked when she found out what they were doing - why had no one told her before I wonder....) who held the family together. A 48 year old carrying twins. How predictable that it all got a bit hairy at the end of the pregnancy, raised blood pressure, premature delivery etc.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

What's miraculous about this non story? When the male of the species manages to give birth all on his own, with all his male plumbing intact, that will be a miracle worthy of airtime.
Not this nonsense.

Well her egg was fertilized by her brother's partner's sperm, not by her brother's sperm. Which would be incestuous and genetically inadvisable of course. Did you misread?

So in their case, it's really no different than if she were doing it for her sister.

I have read all the arguments against surrogacy and I agree wholeheartedly that in most cases it is using women's bodies as commodities, and not thinking about the baby's needs. There's something very wrong about it, even where the mother is doing it altruistically. Also did not like Jake's attitude in the show at all.

But if you are going to have surrogacy, I'd say doing it for a sibling is one of the most positive situations, and has the best chance of working out. Why did you find that case so shocking? (unless you thought she was literally allowing herself to be impregnated by her brother - ew! ) Nobody would want that anyway.

Bit late as it was posted on 2019 but I have only just come across this article and I'm quite shocked. A sister acting as a surrogate for her brother & his partner... using her own egg. So basically handing over her own baby to be raised by its uncle who is also its dad

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/9521048/mum-birth-brothers-baby-stranger-surrogate/

I had a cannula in each hand and I had a VB. In my case it was the syntocin drip & glucose sliding scale as I'm diabetic. So not necessarily.

I hope she is/was okay

Doing it again? Well I'm not surprised but they sound broke. Maybe the documentary payment was a lot of £.

I expect poor Laura for a buzz from it as well as needs the cash. She might also like having some attention? I don't mean that in a bad way, more just the gratitude and feeling like you're the most special person.

I do hope she changes her mind. That would be her fourth pregnancy and her hormones might not have settled before making such a huge decision. She has her kids to think of too.

HaveaStock there can be lots of reasons for being cannulated after/during birth which don't include having a CS. Fluids after a haemmorage for example.

Well this is odd. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but I wonder if something has put the wind up Care fertility.
I previously looked through the costing schedules and readily found the bit about egg sharing and the cut price £1000 deal.
Now I can't find it.
There is mention of egg sharing in a different part of the website but the link won't open.

Odd. 🤔

Thanks so much Zeugma

I will have a listen later. Had to rush out without finishing what I wanted to say, re egg sharing.
My local IVF clinic is part of Care Fertility who are big players in the business. Prices are on the website, I think they might vary slightly between clinics but I doubt there is a significant difference.
They quote £1000 for treatment if you egg share compared to the full cost of £3500 plus. Considering payment to donors is capped at £750 I think this sort of discount is not really in the spirit of the rules.
I have been corresponding with the HFEA over a number of issues but they haven't responded to this particular question that I raised with them. I will go back to them again about it when I have listened to the programme.

Concerns about egg sharing include firstly, the obvious that a woman may fail to have a baby despite IVF but her eggs may produce a baby for another woman. I think that would be very hard to come to terms with. I think, tbf, I saw something about this on the Care Fertility website, at least it is mentioned, I think it said you have a right to find out if you have a child elsewhere, I need to check facts when I am home again.

My other concern is that this may mean a difference in a woman's treatment regime. NICE recommendations to reduce the risk of OHSS are that the minimum dose of ovarian stimulation drugs should be used to achieve the number of egg needed. I sometimes lurk on the IVF threads on Mumsnet to learn more about treatments. Several posters have said their consultant reassuringly said "you only need one good egg" and they had success with just the one although probably more were collected but not all made the grade. Or some could be saved for another try. But clearly a woman doesn't need to go for maximum stimulation to produce say 40 eggs as happen with egg "donors" in the USA when they are being paid $10k.
So are egg sharers overstimulated to produce more eggs so there are plenty to go round?
This is a question I asked the HFEA.
I can't log in and access their reply just now, but they sent me some figures that showed egg "donors" and egg "sharers" did produce more eggs than individual IVF patients but they posited the reason was because the average age in this group was lower so they were a more fertile group.

It wasn't a massive difference to be fair, bearing in mind the range that goes into an average statistic. In the region of about 16 v 10, so not a huge red flag.
But theHFEA said they don't monitor individual treatments (unless there's a reason to look at an individual case). So that question remains unanswered for me.