Gay/trans false equivalence

Lesbians are same sex attracted.
As are gay men.

Its called SEXuality not GENDERality

...unless they are attracted to men which makes them straight.

Lesbians are women attracted to other women. Trans women are lesbians.

It would be interesting to see a discrimination case on the basis of sexual orientation brought by a trans person. It would be fascinating to see a judge unpick that.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

Your sex doesn’t change when your ‘gender presentation’ does, so no, there is literally no change whatsoever to your sexual orientation as a result of transition. Heterosexual transsexual males are not lesbians.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does.

What do you mean by 'gender presentation', and why is it important to you?

Secondly, gender identity is very real, as is the condition of gender dysphoria where this does not match your body and hence birth assigned sex. It cannot easily be changed, and attempts to force that change through social disapproval of trans identities and gender non conformity can be very harmful.

What do you mean by 'gender identity', and in what way do you believe it 'does not match' the bodies of individuals who identify as transgender?

What has gender non conformity got to do with transgenderism? Is transgenderism based on stereotypes?

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa.

Please stop presenting this as a given. It legitimises homophobia and enables porn-addled men to invade lesbian spaces.

For you Floral

I am so sorry that happened to you.

Intonation = into a.

Silly autocucumber.

You do not change your sexual orientation by conversion therapy, nor by adopting the cultural gender presentation of the opposite sex.

If you are a heterosexual, you do not change intonation homosexual via presentation, surgery or altering your documents.

There is no overlap between the issues facing a lesbian dealing with conversion therapy and a male trans person who wishes to be called a lesbian. None.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

No, straight males who transition are not generally perceived as lesbians by wider society, however much they may want that to be the case. And straight females are not perceived as gay men.

BahHumbygge very clear and nicely put. It is simple isn't it

There are obvious differences between being gay and being trans as one is about sexual and romantic attraction while the other is about gender identity. However there are a some crossovers and these are very relevant.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

Secondly, gender identity is very real, as is the condition of gender dysphoria where this does not match your body and hence birth assigned sex. It cannot easily be changed, and attempts to force that change through social disapproval of trans identities and gender non conformity can be very harmful.

So while there are significant differences in the experiences of gay and trans people, I don't think they can be separated completely. Both involve a way of thinking and feeling traditionally condemned by society as being out of line with the way someone "ought" to think and feel based on their body.

BahHumbygge that was so wonderful, clear and powerful. Thank you.

Gays are gay in their own right

Lesbians are lesbian in the own right

Straight people are straight in the own right

Black people are black in their own right

Deaf people are deaf in their own right

etc etc

They are merely existing unto themselves and seek assistance and recognition to be full members of society, they are not making statements that affect the ontology of others.

If trans people were "trans" in their own right, that would be fine and I would support it.

But through the statement "trans women are women", (ditto TMAM) they are making a statement that fundamentally alters the ontology of myself and every other female person. They alter the ontology of womanhood from femaleness to femininity and thereby forcibly change my status from that of a fully human person who has a female body, into an ideal of a demure, submissive feminine lady-brained person. (The basis for aeons of sexism). Thereby repositioning me into the power hierarchy of gender against my will. It's a profoundly political act by use of language.

I look at this from a different angle, though of course I also supported gay and Lesbian rights:

Gay and Lesbian rights do not infringe on my rights at all. Transgender rights, however, are very likely to do exactly that, because they seem to include things which general concepts of rights do not: The right to redefine all our words, the right to decide what a woman is, the right to turn all single-sex female spaces into mixed sex ones, the right to erase the significance of the female body in womanhood and so on.

Christ, floral, it's like Oranges are not the Only Fruit. So sorry to hear what happened to you. Sending my love to a lovely person. You are one of the big reasons that I keep coming here. xxx

Trans ideology is inherently homophobic and misogynistic. In itself it’s a form of conversion therapy- if you can’t name sex the there’s no same sex protection, the cotton ceiling basically advocated corrective rape of lesbians while silencing them with shouts of transphobia.

Beside which, wait and see approach with gender dysphoria isn’t the equivalent of conversion therapy, it’s the equivalent of wait and see approach if kids come out to their parents. Not necessarily saying that’s right, but conversion therapy for sexuality isn’t the equivalent of not providing life altering, damaging medicalisation of a feeling.

I'm so sorry floral

Op, I think the main argument that convinced me was the comparison about the groups objectives:

The gay rights movement was about wanting the freedom to practise sexuality without interference from others. Sexual preference was no one else's business and certainly not the state's.

TRAs want to make gender expression and the language around it everyone's business. They want the state to intervene and enforce their perspectives, and for all definitions to be rewritten to reflect them.

They really aren't remotely the same. Gay rights but about carving out a space for individuals to live out their lives in freedom and safety, TRA is about policing the whole of society around the needs and experiences of one group of people.

Eg Gay marriage does not affect my marriage. There's nothing different about the process, experiences or reality of straight marriage because same sex marriage is possible.

Redefining 'woman' to include transwomen affects the experience of being a woman on every level. My life would be different if I was legally required to share all female only spaces, experiences and opportunities with males.

This is in direct contradiction to later life transition for males where only around 30% commit to surgery when they decide to transition.

I don't think it's that many. The figure I've seen quoted is less than 10%.

I've also seen people argue that suggesting the best thing for a young 'trans' person might not be to start taking hormone blockers or have surgery is similar to advocating for conversion therapy for gay people..

No one is saying trans people shouldn't have surgery but once on beta blockers before puberty the pathway rarely deviates from surgery and towards a loss of sexual function and infertility.
This is in direct contradiction to later life transition for males where only around 30% commit to surgery when they decide to transition.
The Stonewall definition is that you don't have to look like a woman to be a woman, you can have a female penis etc, but these choices are taken away from children at an age when they can't really understand what they are committing to. They are forced to maintain a rigid presentation of their new gender through life long drugs with associated problems of the possible side effects of Lupron which include brittle bones, oseoperosis, joint pain, blurred vision , depression.

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Exactly the same group- non conforming 'feminine' boys that were pushed into gay conversion programs are now being pushed into trans programs if they express a preference for girls toys/clothing.

I'm so sorry that happened to you Floral. A close friend of mine went through something similar in the 90s - I assume it was similar, she didn't want to talk about it but there was a religious element and it nearly destroyed her.
Some of the detransitioners' stories and reports about Tavistock fill me with dread and rage. Homophobia seems to be a factor in so many cases, and some people have the gall to accuse those who advocate for watchful waiting of promoting conversion therapy!