Update on my case, and on exactly how much Girlguiding is spending of their money

An adult female actively transitioning to a man (in their eyes at least) with male hormones/mastectomy I can understand being turfed out. They can be as misogynistic as other men and would hardly be female role model anyway. Children can't do this, only identify with sex stereotypes or not so a GNC girl absolutely belongs there.

Even a very feminine boy shouldn't find it the best environment as GG should really be about breaking down sex stereotypes, not embracing them as transgirls clearly have.

All credit Katie for standing ground on this and bringing incoherent policies to light.

Sorry! I've just caught up with the posts and realised someone had beaten me to it. I'm as staggered as you are - I genuinely couldn't believe it was true at first.

BigGee
I stand corrected again.

I had a quick look at the GGUK accounts
the costs of fighting this case are a drop in the ocean to them
their investments generate over £1m of income alone
a £1.2m grant last year from the Pears foundation dwarfs
the costs of that hearing

but interestingly their annual report makes no mention of the fact that men are able to use assumed names to pass as women

So the girl guides are an organisation well known for encouraging nonconformity in girls.

I don't think this can be true anymore.

What about a non-binary person? Either it's sex segregated - which it's clearly not now biological males who feel feminine are in, or it's segregated by gender.

If it's segregated by gender it has to be pink, frilly, makeup, simpering ONLY (I welcome someone from GG in the know about what list of sex stereotypes they're going to apply) or almost everyone (no matter their sex / gender).

If they allow GNC and non-binary (gender) biological females then why not males? There are plenty of biological males who are GNC or non-binary and excluding them would therefore be discriminatory under the current set up. They're biologically male but their gender would be the same (non binary, GNC) as lots of the girls there. I know a heck of a lot of kids - XX and XY - who wear pretty much jeans and a t-shirt with similar short hairstyles and interests. It's been established that being biologically male is not a reason for exclusion.

Perhaps they're excluding the GI Joe type masculine genders, but I don't see how they can reasonably exclude non-binary males.

It's also rather dodgy to apply a different set of inconsistent rules to children and adults. But the whole thing doesn't make sense.

So the girl guides are an organisation well known for encouraging nonconformity in girls.

But if you go that extra half an inch, identify as a man, and actually uphold the bloody ideology that they are now committed to, you're fucking out???

Summed up by Al1Langdownthecleghole

Or maybe, just “women are wrong”.

@Coyoacan

Many moons ago, I was a junior Counsel's clerk and one of my colleagues said that approach was known as 'using a sledgehammer to crack a nut'.

It's a blatant attempt to intimidate the other side.

How many biological women truly identify with sex stereotypes? In a culture where rape is basically legal - given how often it is successfully prosecuted - and there is so much violent porn and violence against women and girls in general? Where girls are period shamed in school? I don't. I don't mind being a biological woman but I don't identify with 'femininity' in any shape or form and less so since I had children (only possible because of my female biology) - I'm too busy caring for those kids to bother about makeup, nice clothes even if I wanted to (which I don't).

#MeToo

They don’t need this kind of message

Perhaps, then GGHQ should not have drunk the transactivist Koolaid about self-ID and "inclusivity" at the cost of girls and young women's opportunities to learn and bond in an all-female environment?

Girls get enough sexist bullying and sexual harassment at school & in public. Female-only, single-sex organisations and spaces are important respites from the sexism that we all grow up with and internalise.

To claim that self-id is 'inclusive' only works if you ignore girls & women's rights.

Also, surely if they're allowing biological males and females to join, but only those with a gender identity of feminine (I bet a lot of guides would disagree with this anyway) - surely they are then discriminating against all the other boys who want to join and share accommodation? Just because they don't have a 'feminine' gender identity?

I can't get my head around it.

Who on earth do the GG think their membership is?

I can't think of any person who has daughters in brownies or guides who would be ok with this.

Women who don't "hold the identity of woman" are not allowed to be leaders. There was a very sad post a while back from a leader whose fellow leader had felt she no longer identifies as a woman, had a mastectomy, was told she couldn't be a leader, so had come on camp as a Unit Helper (a role open to men), had to sleep in a single tent and was using the men's loos (which made the male helpers uncomfortable).

This is utterly scandalous - why is this not being reported?

So originally GG said that female children who don't perform feminine sex stereotypes (and identify as transboys) should be excluded - which is transphobic but only to biologically female transpeople (it is direct discrimination on the basis that they are trans and also female).

They were called out on that, so changed the policy for children, such that it is now not logical or consistent across different sexes. But they didn't change it for adults.

So if you're an adult female who doesn't identify with feminine sex stereotypes and an ideology (gender) based on those, then you are excluded?

How many biological women truly identify with sex stereotypes? In a culture where rape is basically legal - given how often it is successfully prosecuted - and there is so much violent porn and violence against women and girls in general? Where girls are period shamed in school? I don't. I don't mind being a biological woman but I don't identify with 'femininity' in any shape or form and less so since I had children (only possible because of my female biology) - I'm too busy caring for those kids to bother about makeup, nice clothes even if I wanted to (which I don't).

Well exactly @Beamur their policy is as without foundation and open to risk as saying adult men who identify as a 6 year old girl can become a member. They are so screwed.

Thing is, if the GRA review is abandoned and self-ID is dead in the water and the Equality Act remains (i.e the current legal situation) all these inclusion policies anticipating this change must be wide open for challenge. There is nothing underpinning them.
GG could be spending money defending an indefensible position. If a child cannot legally be 'trans' and single sex exclusion is legal this all goes away.

Why would a woman who didnt want to identify as a woman join a female organisation. There was none of this stuff when I was growing up. I loathed guides only joined becsuse that's what you did after brownies. Didn't stay long.

Katie
I didn't know that. That's dreadful.

There are no issues with non-conforming women or girls being asked to leave.

It feels like a very twisted homophobia to me Datun, particularly given Katie’s comment that non-conforming biological women are not allowed to be leaders.

I think the logic is that Transwomen are women and transgirls are girls, but gender NC females are wrong.
Or maybe, just “women are wrong”.