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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Debbie Hayton's article for National Review

147 replies

moptophairshop · 24/07/2020 16:43

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this article. It is intended for a US audience but I found it interesting to hear a trans woman's point of view.
"While transgender people can and should be able to live our lives in peace, as a minority in need of accommodation, we need to fit in with society and not have society revolve around us."

www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/britain-comes-close-to-defeating-trans-overreach/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:
ThinEndoftheWedge · 25/07/2020 10:38

Moptop

I think your journey is one many of us have travelled, but in fast forward!

One of my first threads (possibly using a different name as I had to name change) was to post a very old article I had just come across.
Took moments for someone to demonstrate remonstrate! I was yesterday’s woman and years out of date! Blush

I now check.
Flowers

Datun · 25/07/2020 10:21

'Good-eggness'

😁

BitOfFun · 25/07/2020 00:26

Welcome aboard, I hope!

TinselAngel · 25/07/2020 00:22

Welcome to the radicalisation portal/ nest of vipers moptop Gin

Cascade220 · 25/07/2020 00:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBunting · 25/07/2020 00:14

moptop, honestly, much respect. I forget what an intimidating bunch we can be, and it's always a bit nerve wracking jumping into an established social group for the first time. The fact that it's typing rather than face to face doesn't diminish that. The fact that you've taken it in good part, and haven't been cowed or got defensively cross is testament to your good-eggness.

moptophairshop · 25/07/2020 00:04

Thank you for all the welcoming messages! I don't agree that I was 'compelled to apologise for wrong speak' and have only taken the comments in a constructive way. Of course putting yourself out there in a thread for the first time is nerve-wracking (thank you for sharing some of your experiences) and so when it quickly became obvious there was an aspect I hadn't considered before posting then I wanted to check I hadn't inadvertently caused offence. The responses have been encouraging and I'm determined to continue on a journey of understanding.

OP posts:
Cascade220 · 24/07/2020 23:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DialSquare · 24/07/2020 23:32

I'm here all week!

TinselAngel · 24/07/2020 23:31

@DialSquare

Standbypee?
This is genius Gin
Cascade220 · 24/07/2020 23:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EmpressLangClegSpartacus · 24/07/2020 23:08

Can’t imagine.

CallarMorvern · 24/07/2020 23:08

No, that one should judge how supportive a person is of women's rights by first considering how that person treats the women in their own life.

Oh, totally.

forsucksfake · 24/07/2020 23:03

There was a #PeeWithMeBro but don't think it took off. I wonder why.

FloralBunting · 24/07/2020 23:03

Scrimp certainly. My son benefits from being in a family environment where he understands boundaries and hears feminist conversation all the time - it informs his attitude towards all women, towards other men, and he has a sense of security in his own self by not being bound to gendered thinking, insofar as that is possible in our culture.

But women's rights aren't about the benefits to him, they are about his sisters. The system will already work for him in many ways - his sisters have been intimidated while out walking the dog twice in the last month and spent an evening afterwards looking for reassurance that they did nothing wrong.

It's just a focus thing, imo. Bottom line for me - 'including' male trans people's voices, however sympathetic, could mean a woman with a male trans partner might feel pushed out of a conversation about her rights. I just can't do that, however effective it might be at convincing fence dwellers. My feminism wouldn't be worth shit if I was knowingly excluding women like that.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 22:59

I like Standbypee!!

Haven't any of the gc men already done this?

EmpressLangClegSpartacus · 24/07/2020 22:59

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

Yes, for sure. That's how I see it, really. Although I would say there is overlap - dismantling toxic masculine stereotypes would benefit all of us.
Yes, it would.
EmpressLangClegSpartacus · 24/07/2020 22:58

@DialSquare

Standbypee?
GrinGrinGrin
DialSquare · 24/07/2020 22:55

Standbypee?

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 22:52

Yes, for sure. That's how I see it, really. Although I would say there is overlap - dismantling toxic masculine stereotypes would benefit all of us.

TinselAngel · 24/07/2020 22:50

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

I also completely agree with Empress on page one. Can't imagine it happening, though, can you? Part of the wokebro's schtick is that I never see them actually talking to or addressing transwomen. Imagine seeing them say ' hey, I'd welcome you, I'd have your back, I'm happy to pee next to you'? I can't.
It could be #PeeWithMee, or something.
FloralBunting · 24/07/2020 22:45

I'm quite happy to use certain male trans people to amplify our case, just as I'm cool with Daily Mail or Times articles, or Tory Brexit supporting MPs.

I just think there's reason to be clear that our motives and interests are very different, and I'll always be focusing on women.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 22:34

I also completely agree with Empress on page one. Can't imagine it happening, though, can you? Part of the wokebro's schtick is that I never see them actually talking to or addressing transwomen. Imagine seeing them say ' hey, I'd welcome you, I'd have your back, I'm happy to pee next to you'? I can't.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 22:31

I think in my first post I called everyone 'folk'.

Which went down well.

Welcome, OP. Smile

I still find the voices of transwomen pertinent and useful, and am happy to have the voices of people like Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander etc included in the case for maintaining women's rights & single sex spaces.

I understand the reasons that others wish to focus on women and women's voices, but way back when, hearing people like Kristina Harrison speak made me listen precisely because they were transwomen. (Not because they were male; because they were of the group that was routinely said to be oppressed/attacked by radical feminists, yet here they were speaking up on behalf of that very group).

That for me really did give the lie to the idea that organisations like 'A Woman's Place' were transphobic.

TinselAngel · 24/07/2020 22:11

Sorry Callar I also agree with what you are saying but it isn't the point I was (hamfistedly) trying to make.