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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We must not fetishise debate"

218 replies

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 09:57

A line from an article by Nadia Whittome, MP. She was so pleased with it that she also tweeted it.

t.co/cr8b8QfOn0?amp=1

When did our MPs become this stupid?

"We must not fetishise debate"
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ThePurported · 24/07/2020 12:04

My first thought was that she was being held hostage. Is there video of her blinking in Morse code?

No, she is definitely part of the nodebate crowd who want to send difficult women to the gulag.

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 12:04

In the past there were ‘debates’ on allowing openly gay and bisexual people in the military

And if there hadn't been debate, the law would not have been changed.

I think Keir Starmer needs to send her this link.

www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/

Do they provide training for new MP's?

FloralBunting · 24/07/2020 12:03

I mean, good grief. How dim do you have to be to think that once an argument has prevailed, it no longer needs to be defended but must be accepted by fiat?

That's the position of the church on the creeds, it's not how a liberal democracy works. Jesus.

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 12:02

@Thelnebriati

"We must not fetishise debate"

Can anyone explain what she means by fetishise?

Not really sure, but I'm sure Conservative HQ have noted it and that it will be wheeled out if she is ever promoted.
zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:59

In the past there were ‘debates’ on allowing openly gay and bisexual people in the military

Yes, there were, some of us were even alive at the time and remember them. I didn't like the opposing arguments but never shied from the debate as I knew they could be won.

calllaaalllaaammma · 24/07/2020 11:58

Her politics look outdated and increasingly desperate.

I think everyone recognises that the 'No debate'-( just slide legislation through by the backdoor opportunity) in the UK has long gone.
This might have worked in the USA 5 years ago because people didn't have time to organise and oppose it then.
But there is debate in the UK, we know they don't want one but they can't avoid it now.
They only have the emotional appeal hand left to play.

The Labour Party will have to change tack soon because it's making them look like a bunch of fools with no insight, it's been a disaster for their credability.

NearlyGranny · 24/07/2020 11:52

My first thought was that she was being held hostage. Is there video of her blinking in Morse code?

Helmetbymidnight · 24/07/2020 11:51

shes getting the thanks from little oj and the fox killer for her sppech in parliament.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/07/2020 11:50

She sounds like a Stonewall mouthpiece.

Let's face it, very few female politicians are permitted to rise to the top in a male dominated system anyway. None get there without being good girls who vigorously support the interests of males and so are allowed by the males to be the token female bit of the HoC. Women like Joanna Cherry are the unfortunately very rare exception to the rule, who have somehow beaten the system. In the general way, you do not get into the HoC by showing any sign of valuing female humans.

FloralBunting · 24/07/2020 11:47

I'd be quite happy to debate whether or not women are intelligent. Because, as a woman, I've got some serious game to bring to the table on that. I can understand why the idea might intimidate Nadia, though.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/07/2020 11:46

Has anyone asked her what is unsubstantiated about Karen White?

If I were on Twitter I would probably start there...

Freespeecher · 24/07/2020 11:41

TheInebriati
A bourgeois indulgence in a talking shop (that may allow, even encourage, the participation of undesirables / counter-revolutionary elements) instead of pressing on with the socially justified issues of the day?

Or, you know, something.

Loveinatimeofcovid · 24/07/2020 11:38

@PastMyBestBeforeDate lol, they should make that their official slogan.

@Gonky the word your looking for there is oligarchy (rule by the few usually supported by some form of oppression as opposed to aristocracy which means rule by the best, in theory that sound good but it’s a very weak model for a number of reasons not least because it is susceptible to descending into oligarchy).

Freespeecher · 24/07/2020 11:37

Whittome is 23 (I think). I'm sure she'll look back in embarrassment on some of her current utterances but, right now, arguing against debate and freedom of speech is disconcerting. Undermines her role in debating issues in the Commons (and that's just for starters)

Thelnebriati · 24/07/2020 11:34

"We must not fetishise debate"

Can anyone explain what she means by fetishise?

zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:33

". Every frontier in the struggle for equality and liberation has only ever been won by walking through fire. "

And none were won by corporate sponsored charities

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 11:32

Whittome is the Baby of the House, as was Mairi Black, I seem to remember.

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 11:29

Oh for God's sake. She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation of the actual issues at stake.

She’s embarrassingly dishonest full stop.

I remember her ‘care home dismissal‘ during lockdown. She slagged off the home owners for locking all the PPE in a cupboard and limiting access.

Not being funny, but any sensible care home owner would have done the same in the circumstances.

She strikes me as immature and attention seeking and with very limited critical thinking skills. I hope Starmer locks her in the PPE cupboard during the next election campaign or she’ll do untold damage.

zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:26

She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation

Or maybe plain thick

zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:25

I am always a tad suspicious of these young rising star MPs, it is only possible to move up the ranks so quickly by connecting well with the powers that be and saying the right things to get the support of influential organizations. She sounds like a Stonewall mouthpiece.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/07/2020 11:24

What is the point of Parliament if it isn't debate? They've been 'fetishising' debate for hundreds of years.

wellbehavedwomen · 24/07/2020 11:21

Oh for God's sake. She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation of the actual issues at stake.

Nobody decent thinks trans people pose any threat over and above anyone else. They pose no LESS threat, either. We don't exclude men from women's spaces because all are a threat. We exclude because some are a threat, which is a statistical reality, as is the fact that most women are less physically strong than most men. We have separate spaces for safety, dignity and protection.

You can't change sex. Women have distinct and discrete provision, away from males, for a reason. Sex determines criminal behaviour, not gender identity. Trans men pose very little threat to women. Trans women pose the same threat as any other male. Women need and have a right to our own definitions and our own provision based on our biological sex, because the harms and discrimination are based on that biological sex. Someone's personal sense of gender identity has no relevance to that fact, and their hurt that they aren't being validated does not matter more than our own safety and dignity and comfort. Women matter too.

The EHRC admit that the sex protections under the Equality Act are differently applied, depending on whether or not someone has a GRC.

A trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

Without one, the comparator is birth sex, so there needs to be no additional reason to refuse access to a women only space. It's not discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment, because all males are excluded, not solely those who are transitioned or transitioning. If there is a GRC, the comparator is the sex that that GRC states, and then the only way to retain women only provision is to invoke the exceptions under gender reassignment, which is a far higher bar.

That isn't what the EHRC want to be the law, which is why they had to be pressured into issuing guidance that this was the case - their prior guidance was far more in line with Stonewall's preferred version. If Stonewall's version were in fact the law, Stonewall would never have bothered to campaign for GRA reform at all, nor to have the exceptions removed. They have done and are doing because yes, it does affect single sex provision. Which they want erased altogether, along with any definition of 'woman' that is determined by sex.

This woman either does not know this - which is troubling - or she is misrepresenting the facts - which is even more troubling. Though not as troubling as the EHRC claiming a GRC has no impact recently, when that runs contra to their own official guidance.

Justhadathought · 24/07/2020 11:17

Just started reading Hannah Arendt's 'The Origins of Totalitarianism'.
These sort of no debate sentiments are exactly what is referenced - in relation to Nazism and Stalinism.

Arendt also mentions how the intelligentsia got caught up in it too - seeing in totalitarianism a possible solution to the radical change they desired to see.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 11:12

@NonnyMouse1337

Should there be some sort of examination that people need to pass before they can qualify to become an MP? Like a basic grasp of democratic principles, values of liberty and critical thinking? Confused
Yes.