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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We must not fetishise debate"

218 replies

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 09:57

A line from an article by Nadia Whittome, MP. She was so pleased with it that she also tweeted it.

t.co/cr8b8QfOn0?amp=1

When did our MPs become this stupid?

"We must not fetishise debate"
OP posts:
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Binterested · 24/07/2020 20:27

I have a horrible feeling many of these useless MPs made their way into Parliament via All Women Shortlists. Can anyone set me right on that ? Maybe we’ll have to have a debate on FWR on All Women Shortlists and similar methodologies. I’m up for the discussion. Unlike Nadia.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 20:27

The debate still happens but it happens without you.

Yep. Yep, yep, yep. And they're surprised when Brexit happens and surprised when the Tories win a thumping majority. Gah.

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 20:20

And her working class girl made good narrative is complete rubbish she is a snotty elitist.

My understanding when ‘Care home-gate’ came out was that she made out she went to local state schools but it was revealed she was privately educated for primary school.

Siablue · 24/07/2020 19:46

This is why we have a right wing government. This is why we had Brexit. There have been issues that are seen as to tricky to bring up or to debate because they are complex and there are competing rights. Grooming gangs is one example. Immigration.

By refusing to debate we hand the argument to the right. By telling people who have legitimate concerns they are bigots you drive people to the right. The debate still happens but it happens without you.

She is probably too young to remember the Nick Griffin episode of question time but it really showed him for what he was.

It is notable that the trans rights activists are cheering her on. If there was a debate about disability rights in parliament and an MP took the stance she did I would be bloody pissed off. Because I would want my MP to stand up for my rights in parliament.

She seems not to know what her job is.

DresdenChina · 24/07/2020 19:29

Some investigative journalist needs to do some digging and do a hit piece on her.

For my part in calling her out...a local white working class woman was a shoe in for Nottingham East when Chris Leslie was deselected, not only on the short list but as a likely winner. Instead they made the shortlist BAME women only to remove her. Nadia was parachuted in after being fast tracked and sent to various political local elections which she wasnt popular enough to win.

And her working class girl made good narrative is complete rubbish she is a snotty elitist.

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 19:28

They've framed 'free speech' as a 'dog whistle', haven't they? So now they're hamstrung and can't even mention it as a basic human right and one of the fundamental tenets of democratic system. So they have to stick to their ridiculous, flaming ridiculous oxymoronic mantras for fear of blowing their own imaginary dogwhistles. Fucking idiots. Fucking FOOLS. This is how totalitarianism gets a foot in the door. Wake up you blithering IDIOTS, and provide a decent, robust opposition.

That was a very impressive rant, and very true.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 19:06

And yes, DeRigeur, thanks, that's an excellent episode from Jonathan Pie.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 19:05

So - is it Labour policy to not defend freedom of speech/debate? Seems a bit odd that out of ? a couple of hundred MPs not even one is happy to say that yes, it's important that we retain and protect civil liberties including the freedom of thought and speech.

They've framed 'free speech' as a 'dog whistle', haven't they? So now they're hamstrung and can't even mention it as a basic human right and one of the fundamental tenets of democratic system. So they have to stick to their ridiculous, flaming ridiculous oxymoronic mantras for fear of blowing their own imaginary dogwhistles. Fucking idiots. Fucking FOOLS. This is how totalitarianism gets a foot in the door. Wake up you blithering IDIOTS, and provide a decent, robust opposition.

SunsetBeetch · 24/07/2020 18:07

Wow she's getting slammed isn't she? She's really made a fool of herself here. I hope Kier Starmer is watching and starting to understand one of the fundamental problems with The Labour Party...

DeRigueurMortis · 24/07/2020 18:05

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

the aim of this is to actually claim freedom of speech and debate are right wing

Yes, I see this a lot. I mean, considering that most of the very few people who are actually speaking up on the issues of freedom of speech etc are right wing, she's got a point. Perhaps someone should be asking why the left appears to be anti-debate these days?

Is there anyone in Labour currently who is defending freedom of speech and the importance of debate? Or is it all about forcible re-education or expulsion? I don't know Game of Thrones, but that quote resonates very well.

Jonathan Pie did a good piece on this:
TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 17:45

Is there anyone in Labour currently who is defending freedom of speech and the importance of debate?

Labour MPs... not that I can see. There are a few vocally Labour supporting journalists and feminists, but I’m not sure about councillors.

The only Trade Unionist is Paul Embery who was sacked from his position in the FBU for his support for Brexit and is very vocally GC.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 17:38

the aim of this is to actually claim freedom of speech and debate are right wing

Yes, I see this a lot. I mean, considering that most of the very few people who are actually speaking up on the issues of freedom of speech etc are right wing, she's got a point. Perhaps someone should be asking why the left appears to be anti-debate these days?

Is there anyone in Labour currently who is defending freedom of speech and the importance of debate? Or is it all about forcible re-education or expulsion? I don't know Game of Thrones, but that quote resonates very well.

ThePankhurstConnection · 24/07/2020 17:17

@WeeBisom

The state of Maine televised their debates on gay marriage and it was highly influential in changing the public’s mind. Members of the public got three minutes to argue for or against gay marriage. The pro side was filled with pleas for fairness, stories of people who couldn’t see loved ones in hospital due to not being next of kin, rational discourse on how marriage wasn’t purely for procreation. The anti side was, to put it bluntly, irrational. It came down to “the bible says so” or “it’s disgusting.” The anti side couldn’t muster any decent points against gay marriage.

What’s interesting about this is the public saw this and responded. They recognised that one side made decent arguments about the current unjust system. Open debate and discussion was welcomed because it was instrumental in getting people to support gay marriage. It was the same with the women’s rights movements - people respond and sympathise with deep unfairness and injustice.

It’s striking how in just ten years or so debate has now been discredited. And to be perfectly cynical about this, I think it’s because the trans rights movement is hopeless. They aren’t on the side of rationality- if anything they are like the evangelicals clutching their Bibles. It is very, very difficult to persuade the public that biological sex isn’t real (which they DO claim, despite protestations to the contrary) or that males can turn into women by having a certain thought in their head. It’s a hard sell, and the trans side knows it. Hence no debate.

They don’t even really have fairness on their side. Once the issues are laid out and explained it’s deeply unfair for women to lose their spaces - see how unhappy most people are with trans women in female sports, for example.

The trans rights movement can’t rely on open discussion or debate because quite simply they will lose. So what they have done instead is create a climate where even just discussing this stuff is bigoted and evil.

Excellent post and in reference to your second paragraph, that is exactly what debate should do - let people see both sides then decide for themselves. No debate means being told what to think rather than being given the facts and being allowed to come to your own conclusions fully armed with information. No debate is a suppressing of information, saying we can't discuss the rights of women and how these ideas about gender being an internal, intangible thing identified only by those in possession of it, conflict with those rights. I can only conclude that the facts of the matter are something which Ms Whittome thinks are far too dangerous for the electorate to handle so Labour must decide how to think for us which I think we'll all agree is the very central tenant of democracy as we know it today. Hmm
DeRigueurMortis · 24/07/2020 16:51

The Fail has picked up the story.

Frankly I think someone from the LP whips office needs to give her a call and educate her on her job description.

She's an utter embarrassment to the party.

KarenKarendson · 24/07/2020 16:25

So debate rolls back rights. So in order for a select few people to take rights that were not meant for them in the first place, then debate must be stopped. Well let's face it, it's the only way these people can try and push this stuff through. Not going to work for them though. Shameful for an MP though. She shouldn't be in that role if she's that thick / manipulative and doesn't care about the concerns of half her constituency. 🤷

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 16:16

Oh dear, she also has a very short memory...

twitter.com/nadiawhittomemp/status/1286617220802646016?s=21

Oxyiz · 24/07/2020 16:12

Student flipping politics.

Coronavirus has meant a huge rise in domestic abuse, poverty, and mental health issues for the most fragile of citizens.

And this congratulatory woman spends her time sending kisses on Twitter to a mens rights activist movement.

ThatsHowWeRowl · 24/07/2020 16:08

I fucking hate this Labour trope of 'anyone who disagrees with me a right wing extremist' as well - why are they doing it? Do they still not get that this is exactly what has alienated so much of their core electorate recently? Just stoooooopppp!

stormsarebrilliant · 24/07/2020 15:36

But that example she gives is an example of how debate led to people getting their rights recognised. Confused

She makes no sense. Literally no sense.

Surely the only way her view works, is where the world she wants already exists. Otherwise you would need debate to create that world...

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:27

Not rtft so apologies if this point has been made. Nottingham has been safe Labour for quite a few years now, hence why a foolish inexperienced person could win.

Not only that, but having ditched the previous 'Blairite' Labour MP, the requirement was for somebody who would be loyal at a time when it was becoming increasingly obvious that the leader was a liability.

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 15:25

"While I understand that the honourable member for Nottingham East does not like to 'fetishise debate', I must point out that..."

I really hope so, merrymouse.

Also, I love "think-shaming - top-notch work from bishop*.

So many clever people on Mumsnet. So many stupid people representing us in parliament.

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merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:23

Interesting she brings in people's fundamental rights and equal status (though I'm not aware that it is a fundamental right to be able to force everyone else to accept your view of yourself and to make them act accordingly.)

There seems to be a wide spread belief that there is a human right to 'define your identity', but this concept of identity doesn't seem to be recognised either in the UN declaration of human rights or EU law, and nobody has explained how that right would interact with any other part of the law.

Fundamentally, people like Whittome don't seem to comprehend that when your right to education/participation in government/own property etc. etc. is threatened; the last thing anyone cares about is your subjective concept of your own identity. People are deprived of rights regardless of their identity.

She also doesn't seem to appreciate that all humans have rights, even the ones without a sympathetic back story.

Kit19 · 24/07/2020 15:14

Personally I can’t fail to feel shock & compassion when I read the stories of Transwidows but then I’m the sort of boring old feminist who thinks women are more important in feminism than men 🙄

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:07

and states that there has been a 40 percent increase in attacks on trans people

Very difficult to verify without any objective definition of trans.

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 15:02

@TheRealMcKenna

Yes! The totalitarian Daenerys whose unwavering conviction of her moral righteousness makes her a monster....

Join me and we’ll build a better world or refuse, and die.

The choices are always so binary....