Daily Telegraph article about transwomen in sport

(DT’s I mean)

I don’t know Caitlin Jenner, I hope they’re happy with their life choices. My point was, usually trans activists and allies talk about transitioning being life saving and any non-affirmative/delaying action is harmful. I know that all trans people are not of one mind about everything, but I perceived from DTs comments a degree of weighing up the pros and cons of when to transition, that she does see it at least partly as a lifestyle choice, a cake and eat it option which women/transmen don’t have.

This may be a view perceived transphobic by some.

I think if you want to play sports then you do so in the category dictated by your chromosomes.

It might arguably give TM an edge when playing sport with females but in terms of mass/power/lung capacity/bone density/pelvic alignment (all of which in combination are arguably more important than testosterone wrt sporting prowess) far less advantage than a TW.

Thanks old crone... that is what I meant, especially with reference to someone like Caitlin Jenner who DT references in the article

Ok so what should Caitlin/Bruce Jenner have done with their life? In order not to have had their cake and eaten it?

Thanks old crone... that is what I meant, especially with reference to someone like Caitlin Jenner who DT references in the article

DeRigueurMortis That is a good point. What is anyone’s suggestions for trans women and trans men to engage in grassroots sport?

She also seemed to be commenting on the fact that DT is portraying transition as a lifestyle choice, which can be done when it's most convenient or advantageous, which isn't the usual 'most oppressed people on the planet' narrative.

A fundamental flaw in the piece is where the author suggests the sport could be done in a recreational capacity.

This indicates that they haven't grasped the issue at all.

Simply because a sport is being played at an amateur rather than a professional level does not automatically make it any safer for the female competitors nor reduce the advantage the TW (and potentially their team) have.

Many amateur sports are still competition driven and whilst the stakes are lower in a financial sense, the idea that it's ok to deny women the opportunity to participate safely and on a level playing field (forgive the pun) and enjoy the potential to "win" still isn't acceptable.

Who has said this (apart from you)?

The person I quoted.....

Anything D Thomas days about women's rights is really not worthy of comment.

In case anybody has forgotten who Diana is.

The immigration analogy for transwomen www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3849641-The-immigration-analogy-for-transwomen

You can’t argue that people can’t change sex and then say that they shouldn’t compete as a man if they are thinking of transitioning in the future because they would be taking advantage of male privilege.

Almost like saying “go to Eaton then Oxford, then an old boys club internship at an investment bank. marry a model, let her birth and raise 2 kids for you, buy a Ferrari.... and then “become the woman you were always meant to be

No it isn’t- For those things you are better off being a man. In men’s sport everyone is a man so it is a level playing field. The advantage would be if a trans woman was in women’s sport. Unless you are saying that sport generally is better for men. Maybe it is. Certainly more lucrative.

What would your advice be to a trans woman who was good at sport? Is the answer to transition and stick with the men’s team? Would you allow a trans man on testosterone to be in women’s sport?

Lots of people seem to be so black and white on all sorts of issues at the moment. There are always two sides to things. It would be frustrating to be a trans sports person - no easy answers.

Almost like saying “go to Eaton then Oxford, then an old boys club internship at an investment bank. marry a model, let her birth and raise 2 kids for you, buy a Ferrari.... and then “become the woman you were always meant to be

Makes me think of the quote on here about running yourself a nice warm bath of someone else’s oppression and settling in for a long slow wank.

@WeeBisom I think it could also go the other way. General acknowledgement and recognition in policy that the average transwoman can easily physically overpower a woman in sportsalso after hormones could also increase appreciation that this capacity to physically overpower women also justifies other female-only spaces. I have yet to speak to a man who doesn't find the notion of transwomen in women's sports indefensible and ridiculous -- so I'm not sure it will be such a hard concession to win with respect to the majority.

Late transitioning man who will never play sports only thinks women could have this concession made because it serves their cause, not women.

I'm sure it's not DT's reasoning. But I still think any transgender person who says (a) children should be encouraged to grow to adulthood before considering medical transition and (b) transition is a lifestyle choice so can be put off until such time as it is convenient/gives the best advantage should be encouraged in these views. So well done to DT for this article. DT should now be prepared to be considered transphobic by the most extreme TRAs.

The message is definitely ‘lose the battle to win the war’

Though in DT’s latest column , they look forward to having their penis removed ASAP which made me warm to DP a bit more

Old Crone, i think most of us would agree with that for the reasons you said, though I don’t think this is DTs reasoning.

I suppose in a climate of almost entirely affirmative culture for kids/teens who believe themselves to be trans, choosing sport over transitioning at that age may save some from something they’ll later regret.

That columnist is very much “TWAW and look at my beautiful dress”. My own view is that they realise that no reasonable person would countenance male bodies in women’s rugby, and so make this concession in the name of staying on The Right Side of History, in the hope of being able to keep all the other bits of “womanhood”. However, effectively conceding that you’re a man in a rugby game but not anywhere else is pretty fatal to the rest of the house of cards.

I do not believe any transwoman should be competing against any woman in sport. Nice piece but I'll decide for myself thanks

Sorry I didn’t explain what I meant. I just meant the conflict would not exist. Because the girl would not be able to outperform by transitioning. Because they gain access to no new spaces and win no new prizes. MTF potentially gain all sorts. So DT is right to tell men not to transition because they get an unfair advantage. Girls get no such unfair advantage.

It just reinforces to me how much this is about using might to get what you want and all DT is really saying is get your male stuff first and then go and get the female stuff. Don’t get the female stuff first or you’ll make us look bad. But get all the stuff.

Do you think this is a “no skin in the game” opinion

My opinion is, yes.

Late transitioning man who will never play sport doesn't mind segregation of sport.