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Let's talk about sects baby! Psychotherapy, all the good things and the bad things that can be

104 replies

hoodathunkit · 22/07/2020 10:51

Let's talk about it!

Apologies for not posting yesterday.

I got so caught up in posting on Monday that it has left me very behind with a number of tasks and quite exhausted.

There is so much to be written about dodgy psychotherapy and its links to satanic panic hoaxes and also to real dangerous cults that it will take a very long time to sort it all out.

I am very busy today, but would like to start by providing evidence to support my claims about Bessel van der Kolk, claims that were disputed by various posters in the thread about Jacqui Dillon and MAPs.

It will take a while for me to post all the evidential links and screen shots, so please bear with me, this will take some time. I will not be able to finish this task today as there is just so much information.

I would like to initially explore Bessel van der Kolk’s many connections to neo-tantric sex cults, this will take a few posts and I am not sure whether I will have more time today so please bear with me.

Firstly let us examine the activities of Bessel's wife Betta van der Kolk aka Betta de Boer van der Kolk

here is a photo of Bessel and Betta together that I harvested from a facebook account (I think it was Bessel’s account to be honest I am not entirely sure, but the photo shows they are a couple and the text accompanying the photo on the fb page confirmed this.) The facebook account is no longer available to me, others may be able to see it? However readers will be able to see from the photo that Bessel and Betta are a couple and will also be able to identify the women in the photo, Betta, as the same woman in my links below

photo here

Now, let us examine Betta van der Kolk’s work as a “tantric” healer and educator

Here is a link to an internet radio show titled "Tantra and Sexual Healing with Bette de Boer van der Kolk “ in which the following text appears
"This interview features body psychotherapist Betta de Boer van der Kolk about Tantra as a way to heal from sexual abuse. Betta describes Tantra as an exchange of energy that brings presence, connection, safety and play into sexuality. She leads the listener in a technique for couples to harmonize their breathing in order to give to each other through their bodies. She also describes ways that a woman can receive sexual healing through Tantric massage, and men can learn to dissociate orgasm from ejaculation, in order to experience ejaculatory control.”

source:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200722074139/safespaceradio.com/tantra/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200722074139/safespaceradio.com/tantra/

I have linked via the archive for safety and for archiving purposes. Readers interested listening to the audio can access it not using the archive using an internet cafe, library or some anonymous place if possible.

The below link is also informative and includes the following text:

"Betta de Boer-van der Kolk – a gifted expert on Tantra and Trauma who came all the way from Amsterdam to be with us. Betta and Dan demonstrated the ‘love dance’ (a completely clothed demonstration of positions for lovemaking), sharing the multitude of ways to share physical love, staying connected with body, energy and heart. It was one of the highlights of the weekend to experience!"

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200722080117/blog.sourcetantra.com/tantra-hawaii-judith-davis/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200722080117/blog.sourcetantra.com/tantra-hawaii-judith-davis/

Another link if significant interest

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150513033724/www.meetup.com/Source-School-of-Tantra-Yoga-Boston/members/34601892/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20150513033724/www.meetup.com/Source-School-of-Tantra-Yoga-Boston/members/34601892/

as is this link via the archive
archive.is/u4bGo

Readers interested to learn the kind of activities performed by Tantra Educators from the Source School of Tantra may wish to read the following 1st person account of a yoni massage performed on a vulnerable female by a man called Sturm, a Tantra Educator from the Source School of Tantra in Maui, Hawaii

"I Got a Yoni Massage For Journalism"
The tantric healing modality is supposed to release tension through your vagina. But it was more like getting finger-banged by a stranger.

BY JESSIE SCHIEWE
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200503204854/www.okwhatever.org/topics/naughty/i-got-a-yoni-massage-weird-news" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200503204854/www.okwhatever.org/topics/naughty/i-got-a-yoni-massage-weird-news

I will post again as soon as I can

Let's talk about sects baby! Psychotherapy, all the good things and the bad things that can be
OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 25/07/2020 15:31

I would like to further examine the work of Bessel van der Kolk and also his professional connections to some extremely controversial figures.

Let us start by taking a look at BvdK’s connections to Dr Mark Schwartz, formerly of Castlewood Treatment Center, currently of Harmony Place, Monterey, and to the disgraced former Rabbi Marc Gafni. I am examining these two characters together initially as they are connected to one another as well as to Van der Kolk.

Van der Kolk and Mark Scwartz presented a workshop together titled "Integration of Mind, Brain, and Body, in the Treatment of Trauma” at Harmony Place, Monterey on 1st January 2019, described thus;

“This workshop discusses the latest developments in treating trauma and understanding the connection between trauma and development.

Bessel van der Kolk is a leading researcher and thought-leader, as well as, is the author of the bestselling book, The Body Keeps the Score.

Mark Schwartz, formerly with Masters and Johnson, has spent 30 years studying intimacy disorders, attachment, and the healing of post-traumatic stress disorder as well as developmental trauma."

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200724155927/harmonyplacemonterey.com/bessel-van-der-kolk/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200724155927/harmonyplacemonterey.com/bessel-van-der-kolk/

My apologies to Bessel van der Kolk. I had not realised that he was a “thought leader”, as well as his other accomplishments. Now I have read it with my own eyes it makes a lot of sense.

Who is Bessel’s co-presenter, Mark Schwartz?
You can see him in the below video
Castlewood Treatment Center and Mark Schwartz sued for malpractice

Marc Schwartz, alongside his long term professional partner Lori Galperin left Castlewood Treatment Center in remarkable circumstances.

Schwartz and Galperin were the subject of 4 malpractice law suits brought by former patients who claimed that they had been brainwashed and coerced into having false memories, including memories of satanic ritual abuse, via bizarre therapy treatment regimes involving hypnosis, drugs and Internal Family Systems therapy (created by Richard aka Dick Schwartz).

The law suits were eventually settled out of court but many families and vulnerable people have had their lives destroyed by false allegations of incest and satanic ritual abuse.

OP posts:
Kantastic · 25/07/2020 15:18

Van der Kolk’s theories are critiqued in this academic paper

You have to put these things in context. That paper is from 2005.

Another source you link to is not even a critique of van der Kolk's work - it's a defense of the DSM-5 against van der Kolk's criticisms of it.

Another of your links, I have no idea of its provenance or what date it was written, but it seems to be a letter from a lawyer(?) not an academic paper.

Van der Kolk has 60,000 citations on Google Scholar. There is no scholar that well-known that you couldn't dig up some criticisms of. Finding one of those 60,000 citations from 15 years ago that's a critique of his work doesn't really tell you much. Try to evaluate these criticisms on their merit and put them in context.

I'm unsure whether I should be engaging, honestly, because I do not think you are open to doing things differently. And I have a lot of sympathy with people who are leaning towards conspiratorial thinking right now, especially people like you who have good reasons not to trust authorities and institutions. The collapse of institutional authority has been massive, and to some extent earned. Thinking this way isn't going to help you find truth but as long as it's doing something for you who the hell am I to argue?

hoodathunkit · 25/07/2020 15:05

That's an interesting article - I didn't get any sense of VdK being a cultist or dangerous in any way though. He seems interesting and seems quite committed to helping people through trauma. Not really seeing the problem here, unless I missed something.

The article did not expose him as a cultist. The article exposed him as using experimental pseudoscientific methods of therapy that can result in false memories. It also reported his central involvement in false memory therapies and in resulting lawsuits. Given that Bessel van der Kolk has a demonstrable long term involvement with the notorious ISSTD this is fairly obvious to anyone who bothers to research the issues surrounding the memory wars and the history of the satanic panic, a history that the ISSTD, its associated organisations and its previous incarnations will be painfully familiar with.

I found the article interesting for a number of reasons.

Firstly because it demonstrated that Bessel van der Kolk was involved in creating false memories. The first part of the article actually described how Van der Kolk had created his own false (although therapeutic) memories of his mother being nurturing, through psychomotor therapy - the text is as follows: (emphasis mine)

"Van der Kolk began as he often does, with a personal anecdote. “My mother was very unnurturing and unloving,” he said. “But I have a full memory and a complete sense of what it is like to be loved and nurtured by her.” That’s because, he explained, he had done the very exercise that we were about to try on Eugene. Here’s how it would work: Eugene would recreate the trauma that haunted him most by calling on people in the room to play certain roles. He would confront those people — with his anger, sorrow, remorse and confusion — and they would respond in character, apologizing, forgiving or validating his feelings as needed. By projecting his “inner world” into three-dimensional space, Eugene would be able to rewrite his troubled history more thoroughly than other forms of role-play therapy might allow. If the experiment succeeded, the bad memories would be supplemented with an alternative narrative — one that provided feelings of acceptance or forgiveness or love.”

Van der Kolk’s claims to be able to create new, more positive memories to replace traumatic memories is interesting and I think can be reasonably be compared to the claims of advertisers of expensive facial moisturisers that claim to change the epidermis at a cellular level.

Either the moisturiser changes epidermal cell structure or it does not. If it does not the claims are false advertising. If it does then the product is dangerous and potentially carcinogenic.

Either Bessel van der Kolk can create false memories, as he claims, or he cannot. If he cannot he is making false claims. If he can (and it has been demonstrated that false memories are easy to create) then it should come as no big surprise to anyone that he is involved with SRA conspiracy advocating quacks at the ISSTD.

There are many other aspects of the New York Times article that I thought it was fascinating for lots of other reasons also - I do not have the time to explore them all right now but will do so when I have time.

Did you know that Van der Kolk was very angry about the article and demanded that the New York Times retract parts of the article?

You can read about his protestations here:
Bessel van der Kolk Takes on the New York Times
archive.is/Zp2ff

The linked article states

"the article characterizes Van der Kolk as practicing a “hokey-sounding approach to therapy” and “a lead defender of repressed-memory therapy.” It also strongly implies that he’d been an expert witness in court cases involving therapists accused of implanting false memories of early abuse, cases in which “entire lives were destroyed.”

Van der Kolk demanded the Times retract several of the key assertions in the piece, including its critique of his research on yoga therapy and EMDR for the treatment of PTSD as lacking sufficient sample sizes and blind raters. He also vociferously refuted the idea that he had ever been a “defender” of repressed-memory therapy, protesting that he’d merely testified on behalf of sexual-abuse victims of Catholic clergy when the lawyers had tried to discredit the plaintiffs by claiming they suffered from false memories implanted by their therapists. He even threatened to sue. In response, the Times issued a minor correction, stating that the articles they’d been able to review, in fact, met the standards of state-of-the-art scientific research, but implying that other studies may not. Otherwise, it stood by its reporting and refused to take further action. Neither the Times nor the author of the magazine article responded to requests to comment from the Networker.”

I examined the archived original piece for 2014 with the latest 2020 archive and they appear identical. There may be some very minor alteration that I have missed?

Did Bessel van der Kolk carry out his threat to sue the New York Times over the article? It appears that either he did not or that such action, if it took place, was unsuccessful.

Thus we have a fascinating situation in which Bessel van der Kolk launched a barrage of unsuccessful complaints and demands to the New York Times about an article you think portrayed him in a favourable light.

I would strongly recommend that readers here take the time to read the article themselves.

more to follow but pushed for time

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 25/07/2020 14:51

I'm reading his book at the moment and finding it interesting and useful. It may be that he is connected to some dodgy people, but does that mean his writing shouldn't be read? I don't really follow that. What is wrong with his arguments and theories, as opposed to him personally? Could you explain why his ideas are wrong?

Highly qualified mental health professionals have critiqued Van der Kolk’s criticisms of the DSM-5 from his book The Body Keeps the Score

a full account of van der Kolk’s criticisms and the rebuttal to them can be found via this link

<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20200725094850/mellivoragroup.com/data/documents/The-Body-Keeps-the-Score_Response-to-van-der-Kolks-DSM-5-Criticisms.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200725094850/mellivoragroup.com/data/documents/The-Body-Keeps-the-Score_Response-to-van-der-Kolks-DSM-5-Criticisms.pdf

The author of the above paper is Jason H. King, Ph.D., NCC, CCMHC, LCMHC-S, ACS

qualifications listed here
<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20200725095841/www.mellivoragroup.com/about-us/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200725095841/www.mellivoragroup.com/about-us/

Van der Kolk’s theories are critiqued in this academic paper by Richard J McNally, Phd in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry
<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20200725111248/journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/070674370505001302" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200725111248/journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/070674370505001302

also see - Bessel van der Kolk, Scientific Dishonesty & the Mysterious Disappearing Coauthor

archive.org/details/BesselVanDerKolkScientificDishonestyTheMysteriousDisappearing

The “therapies”promoted by Van der Kolk such as yoga, EMDR, mindfulness Internal Family Systems and many others (the list is endless with new therapies emerging almost daily) may sometimes be nice, “feel good” experiences that may very well cheer people up or even dliver a feeling of being on a "high" in the short term. My concern is less about people being cheered up or feeling some relief from their inner demons and more about the lack of safeguarding and due diligence that can result in some of these therapies being gateways into cults.

One of the problems with cults of any kind is that they do not advertise the fact that they are cults. They promote themselves as “nurturing”, “trauma informed” and "holding a safe space”and then use a bait and switch so that the vulnerable person who thinks they are accessing a nurturing, safe and supportive service ends up being abused.

For example, a woman who has been raped or a young person with autism and confused feelings about interpersonal relationships may commence yoga therapy or some other non-evidence based therapy and may feel much better due to the “love bombing” and natural high that yoga and other non-evidence based therapies can induce, but end up involved in a subculture in which “sacred kink”, polyamory, non-binary identities and recovered memories of childhood experiences abound.

Even if we ignore the significant problem if yoga cults, we have to notice that there is a push from some quarters for yoga to be prescribed on the NHS.

One example is the conference Yoga in Healthcare Alliance details of which can be found in the below link, that was promoted enthusiastically by the Prince of Wales, presumably when he took some time off from talking to plants and endorsing homeopathy.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200127090539/yogainhealthcarealliance.com/YIHA2019/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200127090539/yogainhealthcarealliance.com/YIHA2019/

Dr Richard Rawlins examines the evidence base (or lack thereof) for yoga on the NHS in this excellent article
edzardernst.com/2019/03/yoga-and-the-nhs/
Readers can access a selection of independent, academically informed, articles examining the evidence of yoga as a therapeutic intervention via this link on the excellent blog of Prof Edzard Ernst

edzardernst.com/?s=yoga

I am a fan of Professor Ernst who also authored this much needed debunking of vaginal massage performed by osteopaths, that is relevant to the “yoni massage” aspects of this thread

edzardernst.com/2018/05/intravaginal-manipulations-by-german-osteopaths-a-new-low-point-for-clinical-research-into-alternative-medicine/

more to follow soon

OP posts:
Fffffs · 24/07/2020 15:29

Op- I replied on the other thread, I really recommend you read betrayal trauma theory. (In fact I recommend all people read it as Jennifer Freyd is incredible). But imho having delt with the rabbit hole of trauma therapy and the online survivors communities it helps detangle it all and find facts if you start with the proven science. You seems to be saying don’t necessarily believe one survivor because she hears voices (not uncommon experience for survivors) and because she says she was a victim of satanic ritual abuse cults and saying she recommends this books by people who are somehow connected to accusations about cults and abuse. Your line of thought seems to read ‘don’t believe this person because CULTS, but believe me about these others because of CULTS’. Which just doesn’t make any sense from the outside pov.

queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:43

VdK's response to the complaint is pretty convincing and the complaint wasn't upheld. If his work/practices were so abusive, I would expect this to come to light beyond this one complaint. I feel like you're clutching at straws to make an argument that really doesn't hold up, at least based on what you've offered here.

QuentinWinters · 24/07/2020 10:24

You will never have "all the data" Grin
You are missing a step of collating the data into different buckets. Instead you are mixing it all together, so your analysis becomes opinion based rather than fact based.
Hence why you conflate Bessel van der Kolk with tantric sex abuse. If you split it all into different buckets you'd be able to describe each bucket and the links between them more accurately and objectively.

From what you've posted, Bessel VDK can be linked to the sex abuser because his wife and the sex abuser both worked at the same yoga venue?
From that you can say there is evidence they may know each other.
You cant say there is evidence Bessel VDK is part of a cult. That information just isnt there. It's your opinion, and your right to hold that opinion, but unevidenced opinions can be libellous so you need to be careful voicing it.

My opinion, is it's a very unfortunate coincidence but not telling. Sexually abusive men are everywhere, exploiting opportunities to abuse whenever they get the chance. The fact they can do that is down to the patriarchy, not a network of cults.

Anywhere that focusses on bodies will provide an opportunity for abusive men. That doesnt mean all men linked to those places are abusive.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:21

last post for a bit

This complain about van der Kolk by a former patient resonates with many of the problems with boundaries and professional misconduct that I have experienced personally with ISSTD associated mental health professionals

cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2018/04/04/PRR_4.3.18_-Anderson-_Bessel_van_der_Kolk.pdf

apologies for the PDF link I cannot get it to archive

OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:17

Abusive cults definitely exist but there's nothing in what you've said or posted that suggests VdK's work is part of an abusive cult or indeed has anything wrong with it other than being considered experimental by some of his colleagues.

Honestly I think this is a bit much, really. As you have all this information, would it not be more helpful to expose actually abusive practices rather than to do this scattershot thing of saying 'here's some dodgy people, here's some other dodgy people' and then acting as though you've given some kind of analysis or argument about someone else entirely?

Kantastic · 24/07/2020 10:14

You're the only person to mention gaslighting, fyi.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:10

can spot bad analysis and that's what you have done.

How can you spot the bad analysis when I have only posted a tiny proportion of the data I have?

Surely the more appropriate way of analysing data is to wait until you actually have all the data?

I am norw running very late so that's it from me for now.

I have a lot more to post

OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 10:09

That's an interesting article - I didn't get any sense of VdK being a cultist or dangerous in any way though. He seems interesting and seems quite committed to helping people through trauma. Not really seeing the problem here, unless I missed something.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 10:07

Also - I have to add that it's not great, that you are discrediting an abuse victim on the grounds that she has mental health issues. This is exactly what abusers do.

You see the fascinating and highly ironic thing about this comment is that we have a strange dichotomy here.

Jacqui Dillon, a vulnerable adult with serious and ongoing mental health problems, appears at conferences run by ISSTD associated therapists where she claims to be a survivor of organised ritual abused and MK Ultra mind control and I am "discrediting" her, rather than expressing concern that she may be being exploited by quacks.

Dillon's situation bears many similarities to that of Carol Felstead aka Carol Myers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1363271-The-extraordinary-abuse-of-Carole-Myers-Carol-Felstead

I am a survivor of trafficking and torture and I have never hidden the fact that I have experienced mental health problems (in fact I still struggle). When I attmpt to whistleblow about mental health professionals involved in sexually abusive cults to my then local NHS mental health trust, to my then GP, to others within the trust I am the one who is given a diagnosis of delusional disorder - even though I can back up my claims with evidence.

The clinicians primarily responsible for my concerns being dismissed were mental health professionals (shockingly working in the NHS) with proven association to the ISSTD.

You have to ask who is gaslighting who?

OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 24/07/2020 10:03

It sounds like you consider yourself to be knowledgable about "tantra"
Not at all. I'm very knowledgeable about how to analyse lots of data to identify underlying patterns and trends, so I can spot bad analysis and that's what you have done.

I agree with Kantastic basically. Look at big enough amounts of data for long enough and you can superficially "prove" anything. That's why we have conspiracy theories.

Kantastic · 24/07/2020 09:57

Interesting article, really highlights how much times and thinking have changed even since 2014.

“Unfortunately, most psychiatrists pay no attention whatsoever to sensate experiences. They simply do not agree that it matters.”

I do not think this is true any more, certainly not as the older generation of psychiatrists age out.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:53

I highly recommend this article which is nuanced and informative

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140525011608/www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/a-revolutionary-approach-to-treating-ptsd.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20140525011608/www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/a-revolutionary-approach-to-treating-ptsd.html

OP posts:
Kantastic · 24/07/2020 09:51

This is just a six degrees of separation game. I bet we'll find that Kevin Bacon is the secret architect of all of it.

Sorry to be snarky - if I can be constructive instead, you need to learn to filter your information and to distinguish a genuinely significant connection such as a business relationship or a mentor-mentee relationship from a non-significant relationship such as "leading expert cited on dodgy person's website." Your information would be a lot more valuable if it was better filtered. Plus you are throwing everything that is even vaguely connected, even conceptually connected, with groups that are abusive, into the same basket. You really will end up throwing literally everything into the box.

Not all psychotherapy, not all bodywork, not even all tantra, is an abusive cult. Though it's certainly true that many therapists and MANY tantra practitioners are on some kind of power trip. Ultimately, wherever there's a power imbalance such as in psychotherapy, and even more so wherever there's a power imbalance and a total absence of regulation or professional standards, such as with tantra practitioners or ayahuasca shamans or whatever, there are going to be abusers.

The solution is to keep your wits about you, especially if dipping your toe into unregulated murky waters- it's not to decide that all of psychotherapy is part of a vast interconnected network of abusive cults.

And to be clear I am not denying that these abusive cults exist. They most certainly do. You're just catching far too much stuff in your net.

Also - I have to add that it's not great, that you are discrediting an abuse victim on the grounds that she has mental health issues. This is exactly what abusers do.

okay. said my piece and I'm done now.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:48

I’m seeing some considerable degrees of separation here: Bessel vdK is an MD (so Dr, not Mr?) is married to Betta vdK. Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.

This is fascinating.

I suggest that we excercise due dilligence about claims of being a survivor of organised ritual abuse and MK Ultra mind control by Jacqui Dillon and I am accused of being a rape denialist.

The Source School of Tantra Yoga is at the centre of multiple alegations of rapes, cover ups and sexual assaults and we have to point out that they are "alleged" (actually I have no problem with any accusation of rape or sexual assault being "alleged") but there seems to be a bit of a double standard here.

Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.

no, not at all

Betta is a trainer for the Source School of Tantra, she is a long term associate at a highly controversial organisation that has an appalling reputation even amongst the new age flakes and hippies who believe that yoni massage will remove the ghosts of past husbands and the invisible psychic parasites that haunt vaginas following sexual abuse.

ans, as I have stated repeatedly here, I am only just getting started.

just quickly (and I have plently more links to share - just no time)

Bessel van der Kolk, Scientific Dishonesty & the Mysterious Disappearing Coauthor
archive.org/details/BesselVanDerKolkScientificDishonestyTheMysteriousDisappearing?q=bessel+ven+der+kolk

OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 09:47

This is what I'm seeing too, MrsWooster. I'm not seeing the connection between all this stuff and Bessel's writing being in some way cultish or harmful.

MrsWooster · 24/07/2020 09:37

I’m seeing some considerable degrees of separation here: Bessel vdK is an MD (so Dr, not Mr?) is married to Betta vdK. Betta is involved in tantric therapy. Some OTHER people involved in tantric therapy have allegedly been using the tantric therapy set up to abuse clients.
Now tantric stuff isn’t my therapy cup of tea, or any other form of beverage but for a lot of people, it is their ‘thing’. This doesn’t, of course, excuse any abuse by practitioners but I’m not seeing how you draw tantric=abuse=Betta is abuser= Bessel is charlatan at best, abuser at worst.
Abusers need to be identified, stopped and punished. This doesn’t mean a scorched earth policy around everything and everybody with whom they are connected.

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:31

I'm reading his book at the moment and finding it interesting and useful. It may be that he is connected to some dodgy people, but does that mean his writing shouldn't be read? I don't really follow that. What is wrong with his arguments and theories, as opposed to him personally? Could you explain why his ideas are wrong?

I absolutely can do that, I just need a litte time as I have to exercise and navigate some real life challenges.

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:29

On the Jacqui Dillon and MAPs thread several posters accused me of posting wild speculation and conspiracy theories.

Given that they were inviting readers to give credence to Jacqui Dillon, a vulnerable adult who hears voices and experienced visual hallucinations and who claims to be a survivor of organised ritual abuse and MK Ultra mind control, i fould their posts about me to be somewhat ironic.

For the education of readers who are interested in the links between cults and psychotherapy I have added some links (EXTREMELY DISTURBING) regarding recent news stories from Italy regarding a human trafficking cult that enslaved women and girls and subjected them to sexual torture.

The group based itself on ancient mystery cults (this is a recurring them in the networks I research) and consisted of a male perpetrator at the top of the network who used a pyramidal structure of compliant females to recruit new victims to his cult.

The cult has elements of MLM, theatre (including sacred theatre), erotic dance and sexual ceremonies that the cult claimed "removed blockages". Many of the cult recruiters are mental health professionals.

Apologies for the post and run I will post more as soon as I can.

Sex cult' led by a 77-year-old man known only as The Doctor who 'tortured and sexually abused female slaves including young girls for 30 years' is uncovered in Italy
Police uncovered an alleged sex cult in the town of Novara, 30 miles from Milan
Officers say cult existed for 30 years and was run by a man called The Doctor
They say 77-year-old preyed on vulnerable women and turned them into slaves
Followers - known as 'beasts' - were 'brainwashed' and subjected to 'unbearable violence and abuse of all kinds', police said
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8541479/Sex-cult-led-77-year-old-man-known-Doctor-uncovered-Italy.html

Novara, psycho-sect discovery: 26 suspects, sexual violence and slave-followers, minors among the victims
ITALY
Monday 20 July 2020

The accusation hypotheses are criminal associations aimed at reducing slavery and committing numerous serious crimes in the sexual sphere , even to the detriment of minors. A very powerful ' psychosetta', based in Novara , was discovered at the end of a complex investigation by the Novara Police Headquarters, which carried out numerous searches in the night in collaboration with the Central Operational Service as well as in Novara also in Milan, Genoa and Pavia.

At the head of the sect, whose followers were predominantly female, there was a 77-year-old man. The Dionysus operation is the latest act of an investigation started two years ago and coordinated by the Turin Public Prosecutor's Office - District Anti-Mafia Directorate.
26 people are investigated. The 77-year-old leader is accused of having subjugated young and very young women, even minors, for over thirty years. The 'psychosetta' had a pyramidal organization; some women operated under the man. The Central Operational Service (SCO) collaborated with the specialized team on sects to investigate the Mobile Squad of Novara. The victims, the 'chosen ones, were subdued with a long psychological work.
A VICTIM'S STORY
«He decides everything, who you can attend, where you can work. He chooses which girls should entertain him, if you can or cannot go to our fairy places. He is He. We call him He or the doctor, because we cannot name his name, we are not allowed », says one of the victims of the psychosetta
"He", now 77 years old, called "the doctor" was venerated by his followers as a sort of God that everyone had to obey obediently, under penalty of isolation from the sectarian group. The leaders of the sect of the "beasts" (as they called each other), in order to achieve their goals, was helped by some of his close collaborators, real torturers. The criminal group, thanks to a psychological center and a dense network of commercial activities, all attributable to the sect - such as two dance schools or a school of 'Celtic Sword', several herbalists, a craft shop, and even a publishing house - he was able to recruit the unsuspecting victims to be unknowingly introduced into sectarian dynamics.
The 'chosen' girls, including teenagers or even girls as in the complainant's case, were introduced to the sect's philosophy and started 'magical practices, including, above all, sexual practices, often extreme and painful, real torture, which they served, in the logic imparted by the leader, to annul the 'thinking self, to light the interior fire and enter a magical, fantastic and secret world. The sect thus ended up absorbing every aspect of the life of the adepts, both as regards their personal and family environment, and even their formation. In practice, as happened for the victims so far ascertained, or the members of the family were incorporated into the sect and induced to submit to the will of the 'Doctor,or the adepts were forced to cut any kind of relationship with them. It was' Luì who decided the direction of studies, the training courses or the work that the girls had to carry out, almost always in the commercial activities related to the organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.organization with the aim of binding them inextricably to the sectarian group. All this determined a real isolation from the outside world which deprived the followers of any point of reference, making them totally dependent on the sect which, although harmful, constituted at that point the only economic and moral support.
From the complainant's story it emerged that the sect had originated in the mid-80s from the merger of two parallel groups, whose main office is located in the province of Novara, the place where the Doctor is habitually residing and from where he managed capillary, every movement of the adepts. In the approximately 30 years of the sect's activity, a number of people who have not yet fully quantified, but certainly a high number, have participated in various capacities and with various roles. Further investigations were also carried out on the economic aspects, both as regards the commercial activities related to the organization, and as regards the payments of money to which the members were required, which were particularly exorbitant in the case of comfortable economic conditions.
No one could consider himself immune from the danger of being introduced into the organization; even girls with a very high cultural level and apparently free from external influences risked being annexed to the sect if identified as prey. This is because the organization used professional psychologists, in turn adepts, who, leveraging on a state of emotional fragility of the girls, even if only momentary, undertook the work of indoctrination and inclusion, according to a precise and detailed "scheme »: The neophytes were filled with attentions, attentions and subjected to a real brainwashing which led them to open up more and more to the practices of the organization, up to accepting uncritically unbearable violence and abuses of all kinds.Everything went on until one of the victims was able to overcome, in part, the traumas resulting from the group's attendance, breaking the wall of silence that enveloped this impenetrable underwater world.
The numerous searches and seizures were carried out in the early hours of yesterday by the Novara Mobile Squad and by the Central Operational Service with the participation of the staff of the Mobile Teams of Turin, Milan, Genoa, Pavia, Alessandria, Asti, Biella, Vercelli, Verbania and Aosta, as well as crews from the Crime Prevention Departments of Milan and Turin.
Last updated: 14:54
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Novara, dismantled psycho-sect: sexual abuse of minors

Dozens of searches against alleged members of a "psychosetta" by the police of Novara in the Piedmont province and in those of Milan, Genoa and Pavia. The investigation is coordinated by the Turin prosecutor. According to the investigations, which lasted two years, the adepts, mainly women, but led by a man, now 77 years old, would have been responsible for the crime of association for crimes aimed at the reduction into slavery and the commission of numerous and serious crimes in the sexual field , even to the detriment of minors.

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OP posts:
queenofknives · 24/07/2020 09:25

I'm reading his book at the moment and finding it interesting and useful. It may be that he is connected to some dodgy people, but does that mean his writing shouldn't be read? I don't really follow that. What is wrong with his arguments and theories, as opposed to him personally? Could you explain why his ideas are wrong?

hoodathunkit · 24/07/2020 09:19

Thanks FourPlasticRings :)

His wife is not him. Not all people who practice yoga practice tantra. Not all people who practice tantra practice tonight massage. You are making a leap from the abusive tantric practitioner to Van Der Kolk being a quack and I think it's unjustified.

While his wife is not him, a poster on the Jacqui Dillon MAPs thread accused me of posting false information about Bessel van der Kolk's wife. I have never done so and, as my links demonstrate, Betta van der Kolk is a trainer for the Source School of Tantra.

I will be posting more about the Source School of Tantra Yoga and its connections to the Deer Tribe, to the Pheonix Goddess Temples (new age brothels) and to other serious criminal networks in the next few days.

It sounds like you consider yourself to be knowledgable about "tantra" and Mr Van der Kolk and I am very much looking forward to obtaining your opinion on the other material I have regarding van der Kolk's network connections to the Castlewood Treatment Centre, Richard (aka Dick) Schwartz (creator of Internal Family Systems), the sexual predator (including of at least one minor girl), and "tantra" expert Marc Gafni and, via a tangential yet significant link, the fascinating organisation StopSo.

In fact some of the more research motivated readers here may have already made the link between StopSo and Van der Kolk, if they have they are welcome to post here before I do :)

One thing that is very difficult about this is that many psychotherapists in the UK and globally consider van der Kolk to be a hero of sorts.

These therapists have recommended his books to countless traumatised therapy clients who, upon reading them, identify with Van der Kolk's experiences and feel very much understood by him. These people then go on to recommend the books to others and so it spreads like a virus, amongst many well meaning, committed therapists and survivor groups.

In order to unpack the positive transference towards ISSTD associated "trauma experts" like Van der Kolk, Valerie Sinason et al we need to examine the mechanics of how positive transference occurs, not only in the clinical therapeutic setting but via books, seminars and conferences.

This in itself is a hige piece of work and I am extremely busy at the moment just trying to stay healthy and not get sick, something that is extremelt challenging given my living circumstances.

Another problem is that I have so much data and information and this is a huge piece of work, but important.

Also now events happen almost daily and I have a huge backlog to catch up on in terms or research and reporting here.

On the subject of which I will take a little diversion, to report some new and important cultic activity that is relevant to the issue of cults and mental health malpractice.

OP posts:
FourPlasticRings · 22/07/2020 14:34

Just here to applaud the pun. 👏