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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Apparently there's a third sex....?

42 replies

Jeeeez · 18/07/2020 14:49

Searching through my council's Equality, Diversity and Inclusion policy document, I have discovered that there are 3 options to choose when asked your sex: male, female and other. Which was news to me!

Others of their diversity documents include a fourth sex: non-binary. They also ask for information on sexual orientation and if "your gender assigns with your gender assigned at birth".

I'm going to write to them to point out that they're misrepresenting the law and making the error of mixing sex and gender. Is this a common thing now? My council is very proud of its Stonewall credentials (obvs).

This is what is written in their policy document about the EA:
The relevant protected characteristics are:
age
disability
gender reassignment
pregnancy and maternity
race (includes ethnic or national origins, colour or nationality)
religion or belief (or no belief)
sex (men, women, other)
sexual orientation
marriage and civil partnership (only in relation to eliminating discrimination)

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TimeWastingButFun · 27/07/2020 01:28

It's all madness.

Thisismytimetoshine · 27/07/2020 01:17

I mean, even including a "prefer not to say" box renders the whole thing null and void for data collection purposes.
Allowing people to say they're neither is a nonsense.
Like the old joke: Q. Sex? A. Yes, please.
It's even as funny as that.

Thisismytimetoshine · 27/07/2020 01:11

If your sex has any relevance at all for the purposes of form filling, why give everyone the opportunity to claim they're "other", even if it was within the bounds of physical possibility to be so?
Such a load of horseshit.

nepeta · 27/07/2020 01:05

Did you ever think that we would be debating the existence of two sexes in humans in the year 2020?

There are only two sexes the same way that humans have ten fingers, as a rule, though some are born with eight or twelve fingers.

EQTONYEQ · 27/07/2020 00:39

DianasLaso'a post is about right, but the point I was trying to make was regardless of there sometimes being no 'other' option sometimes things are written to suggest 'how do you identify?' Or gives them room to state what they are comfortable with being seen as.

Jeeeez · 21/07/2020 11:16

@GiantKitten Yes, probably! Changing the Equality document within 24 hrs is pretty good going though.

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GiantKitten · 21/07/2020 11:08

[quote Jeeeez]@GiantKitten That's great! They've actually changed all their public documents already?[/quote]
Oh I don’t know about that Confused

That’s just their Diversity and Equality page.
My email went to their HR, who forwarded it to 4 individuals, one of whom replied to me, so I assume they’ll be looking further...I should reply and ask, shouldn’t I?

It’s really hard to find all this stuff on council websites! This is my borough council, I couldn’t find anything at all on county council website, I must have another look.

Jeeeez · 21/07/2020 10:35

@GiantKitten That's great! They've actually changed all their public documents already?

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Kantastic · 21/07/2020 10:34

Sex is like asking ‘are you a virgin?’ - it’s an either/or - yes/no option.

Nah, virginity genuinely is a social construct, and "are you a virgin" frequently doesn't have clear-cut answers - how are lesbians supposed to define "virginity", for example?

"What sex are you?" is more like "Are you pregnant?"

GiantKitten · 21/07/2020 10:17

@CallarMorvern

But wouldn't four boxes to tick be the thing to aim for. Women, men, transwomen, transmen, oh and non binary makes five. I know you are debating the wording of the EA2010. But for me transwomen need to accept who they are and have their own rights and spaces, not take ours. It's seems we are arguing if they want to be included as women, which will happen if there are only 2 boxes to tick, but also arguing if they want their own category.
Ideally, all such forms would have questions on both sex and gender. This isn’t going to go away, and the 2021 census isn’t, apparently, including both - so far Hmm

@Jeeeez guess what? A reply to my email, and they’ve changed it!!! The characteristics were in alphabetical order, & they’ve just replaced gender with sex so now they aren’t, but I’ll take that!

Apparently there's a third sex....?
Apparently there's a third sex....?
CallarMorvern · 20/07/2020 23:01

But wouldn't four boxes to tick be the thing to aim for. Women, men, transwomen, transmen, oh and non binary makes five. I know you are debating the wording of the EA2010. But for me transwomen need to accept who they are and have their own rights and spaces, not take ours.
It's seems we are arguing if they want to be included as women, which will happen if there are only 2 boxes to tick, but also arguing if they want their own category.

DialSquare · 20/07/2020 13:45

My council has an Equality Act page that quotes the correct characteristics, however after digging a bit, I have found an equality employment report that quotes gender as a protected characteristic but doesn't mention Sex or Gender Reassignment. So I've just emailed them pointing out the error!

GiantKitten · 20/07/2020 13:13

[quote Jeeeez]@GiantKitten Did you get a reply from the council or did your email just go unanswered?[/quote]
Unanswered...

Although I may well not have put my name & address on last time - I can’t remember - so I suppose they didn’t have to respond, as they didn’t know if I’m actually a resident or not.

I’ve put them on this time, & attached 3 screenshots, with the relevant words circled, from their/Govt websites.

Jeeeez · 20/07/2020 11:36

@GiantKitten Did you get a reply from the council or did your email just go unanswered?

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GiantKitten · 20/07/2020 11:29

@Jeeeez

I forgot to add a Wink face earlier, as obviously 4 sexes is baloney. But I'm still recommending that people check their local situation.
Thanks for the reminder, Jeeeez I checked mine ages ago & it was wrong - says gender, not sex. Emailed them then & forgot about it. Just checked again and of course it’s still wrong Hmm
NearlyGranny · 20/07/2020 10:56

If we actually had three distinct sexes (or four!) every baby would have to have three (or four) parents. The amount of co-ordinated activity necessary for conception would surely have led to our extinction by now!

Gender is another thing altogether.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/07/2020 22:10

Sometimes people might have both kinds of loins at birth

No, they can't. Even people with rare intersex conditions would have ambiguous genitalia.

or do things to switch gender

But OP's discussion is specifically about sex, not hair and clothes.

DickKerrLadies · 18/07/2020 20:54
Grin
BoreOfWhabylon · 18/07/2020 20:07

@DickKerrLadies

Sorry Bore - I was aiming it at Tony.

Apologies. Can I say that the eyerolling I was doing was making it difficult to type? Grin

No worries @DickKerrLadies, my eyeballs were fair whizzing round my head at that one too Grin
TheCuriousMonkey · 18/07/2020 18:27

Well at least they correctly list sex as one of the protected characteristics, often it mysteriously becomes "gender".

But the Equality Act 2010is explicit that sex means either male or female:

Section 11:

In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

No "other" sex in the Equality Act.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 18/07/2020 18:04

Jeeeze
You should send this to your council,theres a competition for proof of a third sex!
1 million Dollars in prize money!

mobile.twitter.com/OsborneInk/status/1284231241756270592

DickKerrLadies · 18/07/2020 16:33

Sorry Bore - I was aiming it at Tony.

Apologies. Can I say that the eyerolling I was doing was making it difficult to type? Grin

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/07/2020 16:30

@DickKerrLadies

Where's the "behold!" image when you need it, eh?
Was that to me DickKerrLadies?

I can see it might have looked that way, but it's a very useful breakdown imo that I've used myself.

Jeeeez · 18/07/2020 16:23

Thanks @BoreOfWhabylon.
That's very useful.

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DickKerrLadies · 18/07/2020 16:17

Where's the "behold!" image when you need it, eh?