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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Changing chromosomes is possible

60 replies

SepticTankYank · 17/07/2020 23:11

I rarely post on Facebook. I can never be bothered. Someone keeps posting anti JK Rowling posts. I commented on one and it got deleted. I commented on another and I wish it was deleted. I got a barrage of bullshit on there. Myself and two other girls agreed and discussed. The author stated he would delete anything that was transphobic (so anything that didn't agree with his views) one stated you can't change chromosomes. I asked if he was going to delete that or if science was still a thing? Obviously it was deleted but he then posted

"Please look up information/testimonies or - from a position of genuine interest, empathy, and respect - ask people for more information themselves. Don't just declare identities wrong, say it's scientific fact when it is provably wrong by anyone with literacy on this subject, and melt like a snowflake when someone explains that hate speech isn't free speech and they're not taking your transphobia."

I have asked but no response. What on earth does he mean that it's provably wrong that we are born a sex and it can't be changed??? This doesn't make sense to me and google doesn't bring anything that I see as relevant or likely to explain.

I'm doing a lot of reading on this at the minute, most of it guided by mumsnet and am learning so much. I'd like to thank you all for that.

OP posts:
Vermeil · 18/07/2020 08:13

@Winesalot Nah, he’ll just post that article in Scientific American that has lots of links to really really small scale, only tangentially related, studies from the mid 1990s, none of which he’ll have actually looked at. 🙄

Collidascope · 18/07/2020 08:05

[quote nauticant]It's pointless engaging with him. However, if you want to reply I'd simply include this link which explains what he's doing:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop[/quote]
Ah, I didn't realise it had a name.

BovaryX · 18/07/2020 08:01

[quote nauticant]It's pointless engaging with him. However, if you want to reply I'd simply include this link which explains what he's doing:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop[/quote]
That's interesting Nauticant. It's interesting that the effect of the deluge is to paralyze debate. Because debate is not the aim. It is an obstacle.

Winesalot · 18/07/2020 07:56

I would love to see his lots and lots of links. I want to see the peer reviewed and robustly repeatable result studies he is referring to. Of course, his links may include some of the great pseudo science articles (one by a marine biologist) and be in the realm of ‘science just hasn’t caught up yet to provide proof but it will... just a matter of time ...’

I doubt he likes sciencey fact based science at all.

nauticant · 18/07/2020 07:50

It's pointless engaging with him. However, if you want to reply I'd simply include this link which explains what he's doing:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

ThatsHowWeRowl · 18/07/2020 07:41

Wow, he certainly thinks a lot of himself doesn't he? What a load of shit.

Collidascope · 18/07/2020 07:35

It's a dreadful argument he's put together and yet I imagine it works as most people just will see it and think, no, I'm not spending an hour or more explaining all the ways what you've just said is bollocks, and then having you come back at me with more bollocks.

Especially given his love of "educating people" with lots and lots of links!

This is a man who bores people into leaving the argument and then congratulates himself on winning it.

Winesalot · 18/07/2020 07:29

Twaddle. He is rather puffed up isn’t he.

BovaryX · 18/07/2020 07:28

but I will delete people

How very progressive. The Orwellian assault on language continues. Its architects are unconcerned about the existential threat to freedom of speech because they don't believe in it. They believe in preaching a mantra of slogans from on high and demanding everyone else obediently chants along in unison. This new orthodoxy denounces, deletes and cancels. It is profoundly authoritarian.

TornadoOfSouls · 18/07/2020 07:20

Yep. He’s a massive mansplainer.

TorkTorkBam · 18/07/2020 07:19

Block him. He is a dick.

Changing chromosomes is possible
Collidascope · 18/07/2020 07:07

Jesus Christ, what a load of pompous shit.

"But trans people are the most marginalised group in the world, and the argument isn't equivalent to whether they are human enough to use the same sinks as others (like in segregation eras) - but rather arguing that actually segregation can't exist because they don't really exist"

Ah right, so we should do away with sex-segregation full stop?

Igneococcus · 18/07/2020 07:02

" when looking under a microscope at genetic,,,details"

Nobody who writes this should berate other people on their lack of scientific understanding.

SepticTankYank · 18/07/2020 07:01
  1. There are plenty of ways of learning more on this topic. The easiest way is to look online for good resources produced by reliable scientific experts and start to understand the full picture. Not in an attempt to skill yourself up to 'win the argument', but to truly become someone who is knowledgeable about it.

I would recommend starting with the direct verbal recorded accounts of trans people. There are thousands of them. Understand what they go through, what they have experienced, why they experienced it, why they have the identity that they have, and how it all works. It's worth it, I promise, to understand and empathise with people very different to yourself.

  1. On the philosophical side there's a ton more debate I'm happy to have - in another time and place - about all sorts of details.

Are there two genders (and non-binary), 71 genders, is gender an infinite spectrum, or does it not exist? Should we call it LGBT, LGBTQIA, LGBT+, and what is the difference between bisexual and pansexual? Is it at all acceptable in the modern world to have a birth sex reveal party at a point in a pregnancy where it may not be accurate, or is it indeed acceptable to gender a child immediately after birth anyway? Is "X AE A-XII Musk" the dumbest name ever given to a child? Does an increased visibility of binary trans issues reduce the visibility of non-binary issues, and vice versa? How do we ensure we are able to take a sensible approach to topics of sex and gender if we can't even agree on definitions of either? If there are two sides of this discussion and they are getting increasingly polarised, and a compromise position literally doesn't exist between accepting and rejecting, how do we find a societal way forward on this issue? Etc etc.

But let's leave this post and its comments to be a very simple starting position. Trans people should be allowed to self-identify. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Non-binary people and bisexual and pansexual people are who they say they are as well. Once we can agree on that level of discourse, and respect the views and the people on this subject, we can then enter into that series of philosophical questions and ask and learn more about each topic and each person's perspective on it without it always feeling like an attack. I know multiple people who describe themselves as queer, but they each use it to mean slightly different things. It's interesting to hear them speak about it, and to hear how their identity and philosophy differs to mine and to consider what I think about it all. But if I start the debate with 'queer is just homophobic slang for gay' and refuse to listen or learn or develop in any way then I will never be able to enter into greater understanding.

So please look at the many people who have shared things in here, and go online to look for more impartial expert sources etc, and feel free to private message me or something in a week or two and start the discussion again on a slightly more grounded and positive front.

Being accepting of trans people isn't pretending that you are OK with what you think is wrong - it's taking the time to understand why they are who they are and moving forward with respect.

Thanks for reading my ted talk :P Sorry for the length of it. But I don't like deleting things without explaining the reasons.

OP posts:
SepticTankYank · 18/07/2020 06:52

His answer:

I have just come out of my last meeting for the day so now I can answer the ~10 comments I had to delete.

  1. Yes, absolutely. Anyone who posts transphobic things will get deleted. Right now I'm deleting posts, but I will delete people if they continue to attack the identities of others. When people argue against both science and people's right to be themselves, it's completely unacceptable.

I'm not fazed if people think it's a ban on free speech - free speech requires the protection of the rights of vulnerable people to ensure that they have a voice as well, and hate speech isn't free speech.

  1. Yes, this includes things that someone claims is "scientific fact" that is provably false.

I have regularly had conversations and posts and discussions and debates about this over the years, and on other threads I welcome the discussion as an opportunity to educate other people on the specifics of DNA and chromosomes and sex and gender and the complexities surrounding all of it. Some people without even a passing understanding of the difference between genetics and epigenetics sometimes try to have an argument about things they don't understand in full and I'm happy to explain with lots of links to scientific studies. I think everyone reading this knows I mean lots when I say lots, and knows I'm diligent in my research and debating.

The very shorthand version is that there is a biological side of things that applies within science on a technical level, but a) over 1% don't fit into male or female definitions under the regularly accepted definitions when looking under a microscope at genetic and chromosomal details, b) the more 'superficial' but more relevant physical differences of vaginas and penises and periods and hormones don't hold up under scrutiny as binary categories either, and c) the most significant aspect is cultural, which includes many differences such as higher male suicide rates and coronavirus deaths on average, higher sexual assault rates and lower income levels and a generally shittier time for women on average, all of the privilege and gendered issues we're talking about in this context.

People who say "it's just scientific fact" when arguing that some races have lower IQs or that women are better at making sandwiches because they're genetically favourable towards looking after others or whatever are not actually using scientific fact. Most of the time it's either a) because they believe something and they're making things up or misappropriating information to back up an invalid argument or b) because they were taught something in 1995 by a teacher who didn't have a degree in epidemiology and have clung onto that as 'fact' ever since.

But if you argued that it's scientifically impossible for humans to run 100m in under 10 seconds because you have never seen it and it seemed impossible when you were a child, you'd be laughed out the room, because people can point at the evidence. Doubling down on that argument after that point is crazy. That's what this is like. Science over the last 20 years has aligned through countless research papers and metastudies and biologists and geneticists and psychologists all working on cross-departmental studies to understand exactly how everything works, and that's where we are today. There are still questions on many specifics, but along with the answer to "do gay people choose" (they don't) the answer to "are trans women women" was answered and then confirmed many times over.

There are tons of tragic problems in society, including oppression of women in many ways, and including assaults within prisons and parenting challenges and all sorts, and most of our countries' worst events have been at the hands of straight cis white men, and most of us are brimming with an arrogance on topics that we know nothing about and a refusal to acknowledge what others experience and the challenges around those areas. I understand it entirely. But trans people are the most marginalised group in the world, and the argument isn't equivalent to whether they are human enough to use the same sinks as others (like in segregation eras) - but rather arguing that actually segregation can't exist because they don't really exist.

So not only are the comments I'm deleting scientifically inaccurate - in a couple of instances scientifically illiterate altogether - but they're also transphobic and bigoted.

The fact that some people think they're claiming something is scientific 'fact' when it's clear that they know nothing about the subject is astounding. It's like arguing with some alt-right flat-earther nut on the topic of Pluto, whether they say it's a planet and you easily prove that it's not true but they just double down because it's what they have /always/ thought and they're somehow under the impression that they get to choose what science is correct based on how it makes them feel. And then they say 'facts don't care about your feelings' while ignoring the facts that prove them wrong.

OP posts:
AsTreesWalking · 18/07/2020 06:49

One of the comments calls her 'little miss pseudoscience'. Really?

'Professor Gina Rippon is Emeritus Professor of Cognitive Neuroimaging at the Aston Brain Centre, Aston University, Birmingham. She is a past-President of the British Association of Cognitive Neuroscience and, in 2015, was awarded an Honorary Fellowship of the British Science Association. Her research involves state-of-the-art brain imaging techniques to investigate developmental disorders such as dyslexia and autism. She also investigates the use of neuroscience techniques to explore social processes such as gender stereotyping and stereotype threat. She is an outspoken critic of ’neurotrash’, the populist (mis)use of neuroscience research to (mis)represent our understanding of the brain and, most particularly, to prop up outdated stereotypes. In her new book ‘The Gendered Brain’ (Bodley Head), she challenges the idea that there are two sorts of ‘hardwired’ brains’, male and female, and offers a 21st century model for better understanding of how brains get to be different'

LesNot · 18/07/2020 06:14

Gina Rippon author of Gender and Our Brains responds to this possibility in the Q&A in
m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpPTpPvbcVo

Apileofballyhoo · 18/07/2020 00:12

I saw someone on FB post that scientists are developing a test that will determine whether people are male or female. Grin

SerenityNowwwww · 18/07/2020 00:05

Magic? Is it magic?

SepticTankYank · 17/07/2020 23:58

Weird. I just posted a list of quotes and links they said but it's vanished.

OP posts:
SepticTankYank · 17/07/2020 23:45

@Dhalandchips I'll ask him. I bet he knows the answer. Thanks

OP posts:
holidayplanningnewbie · 17/07/2020 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dhalandchips · 17/07/2020 23:37

Oh yeah... He can't.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 17/07/2020 23:37

I've just been watching Jurassic Park, where some of the dinosaurs change sex so they can reproduce (despite being all female). Maybe he has seen the same film and thought it was a documentary,?

nauticant · 17/07/2020 23:37

Sex is more complicated than you think

Just about every physical interaction we have with the real world requires us to take gravity into account. However, gravity as we understand it in the real work is only an approximation for something much deeper and much more complicated.

Since the approximation works without any problem for all real world situations we encounter, do we change the way we act because gravity operates very differently around black holes or do we carry on as we are?

The reason we carry on as we are is because, as far as leading our lives is concerned, the great complexity is not actually significant.

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