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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender people twice as likely to be victim of crime

60 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/07/2020 20:32

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

This publication reports on experiences of crime by the victim’s gender identity for the first time, after a new question on gender identity was trialed in the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) from 1 October 2019 to 18 March 2020. The data show those people whose gender identity is different from their sex registered at birth were twice as likely (28%) to be a victim of crime (excluding fraud) than those whose gender identity is the same as their sex registered at birth (14%) in the year ending March 2020.

OP posts:
petherbridge · 19/07/2020 07:08

These figures are obtained by asking people whether they've been a victim of crime, so don't depend on reporting to the police. They do however exclude sexual offences and ignore domestic violence mentioned in the written part of the survey.

nepeta · 19/07/2020 01:05

@ThinEndoftheWedge

A quick glance suggests to me this is about recorded crime. (Maybe wrong).

If so

Most rapes and DV are male in female violence and not reported.

An action which is recorded as a ‘hate crime’ perpetrated against TW is not recorded as a ‘hate crime’ if perpetrated against women. Women literally don’t count.

Systemic structure of statistics gathering is not equitable.

I didn't go through the summary very carefully, but I believe that most of the information comes from interviews of individuals, and that this information is supplemented with some data from the police.

I tried to find the crime data disaggregated for various sub-groups, but could not find that even in the tables. So we don't know if it's theft that differs or violence or some other category or all of them.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/07/2020 12:40

I thought it was interesting that the only other category approaching this was lesbian /gay (sadly not disaggregated).

I have the impression that (I may well be wrong) that genuine transphobia is actually relabelled homophobia?

OP posts:
Gronky · 18/07/2020 10:08

Thank you, Al1Langdownthecleghole.

feetfreckles · 18/07/2020 09:53

But it's likely the only additional risk a transgender woman takes over the average Male is that of transgressing gender norms. Should they be punished for that? Should they be blamed?

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 18/07/2020 09:46

@Gronky

Risk taking behaviour is most common in young males.

Could I ask whether you feel that 'risk taking' means an individual is in some way responsible for being a victim of crime? Not necessarily entirely.

I was thinking predominantly of violent incidents which involve males more often than females. Because testosterone/Male socialisation. It's a tricky one because of not wanting to blame the victims, but females, as a class, are more likely to try to de-escalate or avoid a violent situation.
wellbehavedwomen · 18/07/2020 09:39

Did you know that the people harassed on the street were actually trans? Or did you assume by looking at them? Have you seen other people harassed on the street too?

Yes, I know they were trans. It's not often hard to tell, is it? And yes of course I have, since when do you have to deny one problem to acknowledge another?

You really don't think that someone clearly male, in women's clothing, is going to meet with abuse at times? Seriously? And that someone who is female isn't going to be getting homophobic abuse, when dressed and presenting in a way that a homophobe will probably read as gay, rather than trans?

Obviously women are constantly subjected to street harassment, and obviously crime against us is massively under-reported. I never reported any street harassment, or even groping in pubs and clubs, because it never even occurred to me that it was criminal behaviour, at the time (in my late teens and in my 20s). That doesn't mean crime against women makes crime against trans people impossible, or even less likely. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm absolutely clear that humans can't change sex, and that women need and have a right to retain our spaces, provision, and definition. That doesn't mean I think people who transgress what is regarded as gendered norms deserve to be rendered vulnerable by it.

You can recognise a problem exists for a group of male people, without thinking it's for women to solve by sacrificing our own provision, protection, and legal definition. And when it comes to trans men then it is part of our problem, because their biology renders them more vulnerable, too.

There are a lot of trans women sexually assaulted in male prisons, for example, relatively speaking. Clearly I think it abhorrent that the solution demanded is to harm women instead, by housing trans women in the female estate. Women are not human shields for male people. But I do think separate trans provision is necessary. Nobody deserves to be harmed or abused, not by anyone. And while the stats may not be reliable, who knows, at the moment they're the only stats we have. So it's right to accept that they exist and that if correct, that's not okay.

Misogyny permeates our culture. Every woman alive is subject, at various points, to street harassment. We all know that. It doesn't mean trans people aren't also getting crap from angry and aggressive men, because they police gender expression as part of their misogyny. And no, it's not our problem to solve, clearly. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem at all. I don't need to deny what I regard as reality, or harm meted out to a completely different group of people, in order to defend women's rights.

feetfreckles · 18/07/2020 09:15

The link to feminism is that anyone obviously gender none compliant, including lesbians and trans, is subjected to greater levels of harm.

We should be fighting for the removal of the gender assumptions, and we can see from the violence stats that currently these are strongly embedded in our society, even if our legal systems apparently give us equality

Yes. It's one of the places where trans and feminism should be naturally aligned , and we should not let a sub groups nasty behaviour stop us from thinking and acting objectively

Floisme · 18/07/2020 09:07

I agree with wellbehavedwomen. I'm not comfortable with picking the stats apart. I don't want to ignore the difficulties that trans people must face. But I do want someone to explain to me why any of it is an argument for removing women's legal rights and protections.

BaronessWrongCrowd · 18/07/2020 08:50

I think it's probable that they are actually the same people. I also think it's very unlikely that many of them are middle aged women hanging out on Mumsbet.

Middle aged is so passé. Prefer the term Age of Wisdom or the Wise women of Mumsnet.Wink

Binterested · 18/07/2020 08:43

The over representation will be hate crimes. Which cannot be committed against women. Or indeed against men. Only against trans people.

And we know that the hate crime can consist of a limerick or saying ‘you are not a woman’.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 18/07/2020 08:38

A quick glance suggests to me this is about recorded crime. (Maybe wrong).

If so

Most rapes and DV are male in female violence and not reported.

An action which is recorded as a ‘hate crime’ perpetrated against TW is not recorded as a ‘hate crime’ if perpetrated against women. Women literally don’t count.

Systemic structure of statistics gathering is not equitable.

nellodee · 18/07/2020 08:37

@BaronessSlighterThanThou

I also think it's very unlikely that many of them are middle aged women hanging out on Mumsbet.

Can I put ten quid on RowlingForPM in the three o'clock at Ascot?

Mumsbet is giving 6/5 odds. Remember, when the fun stops, stop. Grin

I think I had fat fingers last night!

nepeta · 18/07/2020 08:24

One way to (very imperfectly) judge the reliability of self-reported crimes is to compare them to percentages in the most serious categories which are reported to the police. It would seem to make sense that the two should correlate, i.e., groups which report being victims of more crimes in general should also show up as having higher rates of the crimes of the most violent sort.

BaronessSlighterThanThou · 18/07/2020 07:59

I also think it's very unlikely that many of them are middle aged women hanging out on Mumsbet.

Can I put ten quid on RowlingForPM in the three o'clock at Ascot?

wibdib · 18/07/2020 07:53

I would be interested to see the same sort of stats but turned around to show how many people were victims of crimes committed by individuals whose gender identity was different from their sex at birth... wonder how keen they would be to scale up the figures from a similarly small sample!

This is partly because I remember seeing figures that transwomen were more likely to be murderers than murdered in th UK. Can’t remember the source for the star unfortunately as would be interested to know if it was an anomaly for a particular year or a more stable trend.

Will also be interested to see how crime stats are different this year as there has been an increase in domestic violence but fewer people out and about committing crimes...

SapphosRock · 18/07/2020 07:38

That's really a shame for transgender people. What has it got to do with feminism?

Fearandsurprise · 18/07/2020 05:05

@wellbehavedwomen

I've seen trans people be harassed in the street. I think this stat is plausible, though I agree that the sample size and lack of info on data makes it pretty worthless in itself. Still, I would be surprised if trans people don't suffer from aggressive, angry, violent men, because they challenge their ideas of straight masculinity; I doubt those men have paused to consider that believing gender roles to be determinative isn't really a challenge, because those inclined to violence over bigotry are likely to be generally hard of thinking.

You can defend women's rights, and recognise that we are absolutely reasonable in advocating for ourselves and don't have to be human collateral here, without needing to deny that trans people have genuine struggles too. It's the demand that we sacrifice our own interests to assuage those struggles that pisses me off - but I very much agree that there should be more and better provision specifically for trans people, and that it's unacceptable for anyone to suffer from real discrimination and abuse.

Did you know that the people harassed on the street were actually trans? Or did you assume by looking at them? Have you seen other people harassed on the street too?

Under the current definition of trans, many people are considered to be trans but you wouldn’t realise e.g. gender free, agender, identifies as a woman or man without any modification to how they present.

Say, if I was reporting a crime, and was asked to report my gender (and not sex) and stated “none” due to not identifying with oppressive stereotypes, that crime would be reported as being against a trans person instead of against a woman.

So, the stats (and the anecdata) will be skewed because people still think that trans means “obviously trans”.

wellbehavedwomen · 18/07/2020 00:23

I've seen trans people be harassed in the street. I think this stat is plausible, though I agree that the sample size and lack of info on data makes it pretty worthless in itself. Still, I would be surprised if trans people don't suffer from aggressive, angry, violent men, because they challenge their ideas of straight masculinity; I doubt those men have paused to consider that believing gender roles to be determinative isn't really a challenge, because those inclined to violence over bigotry are likely to be generally hard of thinking.

You can defend women's rights, and recognise that we are absolutely reasonable in advocating for ourselves and don't have to be human collateral here, without needing to deny that trans people have genuine struggles too. It's the demand that we sacrifice our own interests to assuage those struggles that pisses me off - but I very much agree that there should be more and better provision specifically for trans people, and that it's unacceptable for anyone to suffer from real discrimination and abuse.

Gronky · 17/07/2020 23:20

Risk taking behaviour is most common in young males.

Could I ask whether you feel that 'risk taking' means an individual is in some way responsible for being a victim of crime? Not necessarily entirely.

NearlyGranny · 17/07/2020 23:12

63 people is not a big enough sample to get meaningful data.

Floisme · 17/07/2020 23:12

I think it's plausible. And I think crimes and criminals should be dealt with.
I just don't see how it's an argument that you can change sex. Or why it makes it ok for men to use women's spaces.
Stop expecting women to act as human shields.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 17/07/2020 22:09

@MrsTerryPratchett

I'd love to have a look at the confounding variables.

Mental health
Sex at birth
Age
Trauma history
Occupation ( notably sex work)

Me too MrsTP

I'd be willing to bet that lifestyle & behaviour has an association, possibly more so than gender identity.

Risk taking behaviour is most common in young males.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/07/2020 21:59

Need to know what they are clashing as crimes.
There was a massive push by the TRAs to report anything and everything to boost hate crime stats.

wagtailred · 17/07/2020 21:03

I think its interesting. Its not ok for trans people to be victims of crime at such a high rate. However, i feel it will be hard to establish why. A few things spring to mind, first is how is rape recorded. Its almost legal! So are you only a victim of crime when conviction is achieved - in which case female victims of crime will be hugely under represented. The other is the trans figure was most close to the homosexual figure. It does make me wonder if homophobia is part of the issue. I assume (and it is an assumption) that the perpatrators are mainly men? So i think we need to look at men to reduce crime against trans people.