Removal of Single Sex Sessions at Harrogate Turkish Baths

If it is being left to well-financed pressure groups or wealthy individuals to access the courts, then all the rights in the world aren't worth a fart.

Justice on the cheap is no justice at all.

Taking away single-sex provision is discriminatory against Jews, Muslims, Sikhs (both male and female) and heaven knows what other religious minorities apart from traumatised women.

As an aside, the spread of the 'assigned male/female at birth' into the mainstream is one of the most astonishing things in this debate. Everyone knows that the wording is taken from the history of what happened to intersex infants in the past, and everyone knows that nobody else was assigned a sex at birth by some governing body.

External genitals of infants are observed at birth but also now often predicted from earlier scans.

If the reference is to gender roles, those may well be assigned by parents at birth, but it seems to lack imagination to argue that the remedy to that is to let people pick which of those retrogressive and sexist packages they prefer (transitioning from one cage to the other) or, for a small minority (the nonbinary one), to hope that one can choose to be free of all gendered expectation by identifying out of them but only if others are simultaneously labeled as comfortable with their own binary cages.

I doubt the nonbinary solution will stop people who look female to others from being treated with sexism but I get why it looks attractive. The negative aspect of that choice is how it leaves everyone else in the 1950s world. Like a private arrangement with what some call the patriarchy.

No wonder the TRAs have made such headway. Our side just doesn't seem to get tactics.

For anyone who hasn't already completed the survey, particularly if you're comfortable using legal terminology, the Harrogate Turkish baths are operated by Harrogate Coucil, which means that they're subject to a public sector equality duty as well as having obligations under the Equality Act - it might be good for a few responses to remind the Council of the existence of the single sex exemptions, and examples of people who would be adversely affected by losing single sex sessions.

In Surrey here & never been to Harrogate let alone the Turkish Baths but have filled in the form! I can't believe they would get rid of female single sex sessions - I certainly would not want to go to a mixed session.
Hopefully our voices will be heard. I'll be interested in the outcome...

It could be they have had issues with the all male sessions too (thinking it was a different type of sauna!)

Oh well, don't worry then, if changing to mixed sex will inconvenience the men who go there for this purpose, then it won't happen. Meanwhile no one cares if women will stop going

I've filled it in too. I wouldn't like a mixed session, I wouldn't go.

Filled it in..

No, please, fill it in, even if you're not local. Harrogate gets tons of visitors, so you may well go one day!

That is absurd. It would be one thing if there is no demand for single sex sessions.

Unfortunately I am too far away to feel right about filling in the survey.

I have shared the link with some spa going friends. Gay and straight, male and female. Not one of them think this is a good idea.

This is scarey...

Is your gender identity the same as you were assigned at birth?

Really - I was assigned an identity???

Gaming surveys is an unhelpful, not to mention dishonest and unclassy thing to do.

Surveys that are intended to be taken seriously are usually hardened against being gamed though. With the more serious the survey, the tougher the protection.

Gaming surveys is an unhelpful, not to mention dishonest and unclassy thing to do. TRAs don't think those values matter and do this constantly; they have a reputation for it which someone needs to clue the Turkish Bath in on as I have no doubt the political lobby will ensure it looks like the entire population of Yorkshire is LGBT and dying for the end of single sex sessions.

But bear in mind, one of the reasons Liz Truss has said they are being cautious around women's rights is because her office realised how massively and dishonestly the consultation had been treated by one side. Please don't add ammunition that GC women are equally untrustworthy and will act in bad faith; by and large we're the people arguing that there are values and standards everyone must stick to regardless of how you feel at the time. It is utterly galling to have to witness bloody awful behaviour and not just join in to try and make it less unfair, but it's important not to add evidence to the often said and very untrue public statement 'both sides behave as badly as each other'.

It appears you can fill it in as many times as you want...

Of course. You don't think they give a toss what it says do you ? It's just a shiny to keep protestors distracted.

It appears you can fill it in as many times as you want... The poster above saying it should be done properly with users of the Baths has a point. They will be inundated from both sides I imagine

Have filled in survey and bumping. Please everyone fill this in, it's really important to a lot of women in Yorkshire!

Rights that cannot be enforced, are no rights at all. Worth remembering.

That's a breach of the Equality Act unless they make separate provision for women with PTSD due to male violence, which is legally a disability and therefore protected by the EA.

Unlawful discrimination in the name of "equality". Stellar.

If the issue is gay men meeting there for sex/intimacy on men only sessions, then deal with that, not change things for everyone else.

I completed the survey.

I filled in the survey - I used to live near there, and still go there when I’m in Leeds or on holiday in the north west - I make a day trip to visit.

I emphasised how they’d be in breach of the Equalities Act particulate excluding Jewish and Muslim women. And that my experience of sexual harassment meant I would never go to a mixed sex session.

I just wanted to add that I attended a women only steam and sauna for some time. Many / most of the women attending were Muslim, some were Orthodox Jewish, some were survivors of sexual violence, some lesbians and some were just women who felt safer or enjoyed the penis free space.

One of the most valuable assets to the wider community of singe sex spaces is of community cohesion.

I think it is very easy for women who are not Muslim to project all manner of issues onto a woman wearing a veil. The veil can make a Muslim woman seem "other".

In a woman only space, even though the Muslim women wore "modest" costumes, they did not wear a veil and we all sat around in the steam and sauna chatting about women's issues.

I made friends amongst a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds who I otherwise may not have made.

Occasionally a man would stroll in, as happens at the women's pond, at which point one of the non-Muslim / non-Jewish women would confront him on behalf of the women who were unable to and demand that he leave. This alone was something that created and consolidated friendship bonds between women of different cultures.

Single sex baths and saunas are a huge asset to communities and play a significant role in breaking down barriers of misunderstandings and projections and enhancing community relations between groups that might otherwise not meet and socialise.

I should add that my response mainly addressed the issue at the nub of this- excluding a lot of women to avoid dealing with making decisions on those that identify as trans. And I got bloody annoyed that their equality questionnaire refers to the actual Equality Act ( and not Stonewall law) and then asks for gender- which as we all know is not the same as sex and thus not a protected characteristic. Truly sick of having this argument - professionally I am a lawyer in a super woke employer