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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scared I will lose my best friend of many years ...

90 replies

Bobkitten · 15/07/2020 14:14

I have for the first time stated I’m in agreement with J K Rowling and my best friend was, I think, quite shocked and responded with ‘trans women are women.’

We had a long calm discussion (not argument) in which I put forward my viewpoint and we agreed that I would send her a few links, so she can see for herself what I’ve been reading.

I’ve done this, but I got the sense she’s horrified and I feel really worried she will write me off as a ‘transphobe.’

Not much point in posting really, but feeling on the verge of tears right now (god knows how J K Rowling is feeling).

OP posts:
Bobkitten · 19/07/2020 15:01

Thank you all, I hugely appreciated all your comments. She understands the issue. I have sent some of the links I have seen in this thread and elsewhere in the feminism section. She hadn’t, as some pointed out, read Rowling's argument in its entirety. The main tweet she had seen was the ‘wimpund/woomud’ one, which she felt was unnecessarily hurtful to transmen who do not consider themselves women but nevertheless have a cervix. Taken out of context, I can appreciate why my friend came to that conclusion, but she in turn now recognises that this is about more than people’s need for validation.

I also sent her the image of all the ‘suck my lady dick’ responses to Rowling and she was horrified.

In a couple of weeks’ time, I am going to ask her to re-look at the responses from Radcliffe et al, and see if she reads them differently this time round.

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 17/07/2020 21:07

All I can, honestly, say is that she can't be much of a best friend to fall out with you over this.

'Friends' are a funny one.....Often people will keep up with people they've known since childhood, for example, out of sentiment and a feeling of security; but at some point there will come a time when we let certain friends go.

Over a life time our values and priorities change and shift, and our friends then tend to become a reflection of the person we're becoming. Few and true, is better than lots of friends who don't really align with you in any meaningful way.

MyBassIsAce · 17/07/2020 20:31

On the losing your nest friend front...

It's happened to many of us. I lost mine after she stated at a rather polite dinner party that she felt it would be more appropriate for her to use the men's toilets etc as she had now gone through the menopause and was no longer a 'woman' as a result.

I think I might have told her (rather loudly) that it was the most offensive and ridiculous thing I'd heard all day and told her that, as she had a vagina, she was still a woman - menopause or not.

Scariest part? She's a nurse...

Jeeeez · 17/07/2020 19:40

Apparently "weird creature " was a Shakespeare reference but I'm not educated well enough to understand if that's true or not.

Skyliner001 · 17/07/2020 19:34

[quote Bobkitten]Quick help please, Mumsnetters. I’ve been sent a link to Munroe Bergdorf post about being described as a ‘weird creature‘ by the baroness. Is that true?
www.instagram.com/p/CBsxw_EAZvT/?igshid=1hvdyfqye9g76[/quote]
Yes she did. I believe it's why she was asked/ told to step down.

nauticant · 17/07/2020 19:28

Bergdorf's greatest hits:

twitter.com/butterflygone02/status/1137506822863171589

If Baroness Nicholson has to be cancelled over one thing she said and then apologised for, then the same must go for Bergdorf too, right?

Skyliner001 · 17/07/2020 19:27

[quote Bobkitten]Quick help please, Mumsnetters. I’ve been sent a link to Munroe Bergdorf post about being described as a ‘weird creature‘ by the baroness. Is that true?
www.instagram.com/p/CBsxw_EAZvT/?igshid=1hvdyfqye9g76[/quote]
Yes it's true, I believe it's why she was told to step down.

Skyliner001 · 17/07/2020 19:27

[quote Bobkitten]Quick help please, Mumsnetters. I’ve been sent a link to Munroe Bergdorf post about being described as a ‘weird creature‘ by the baroness. Is that true?
www.instagram.com/p/CBsxw_EAZvT/?igshid=1hvdyfqye9g76[/quote]
Yes it's true, I believe it's why she was told to step down.

Kit19 · 17/07/2020 19:13

Long story short

Yes she did but she apologised & she & MB are having tea

Luckily MB has never been caught addressing anyone as a “ barren hairy lesbian”....oh wait!

www.thesun.co.uk/news/5717376/labour-lgbt-munroe-bergdorf-homophobic-tweets-apology/

Bobkitten · 17/07/2020 19:08

Sorry to be rude and not acknowledge all your posts, trying to do a million and one things at once, so will log back in later.

OP posts:
Bobkitten · 17/07/2020 19:08

Quick help please, Mumsnetters. I’ve been sent a link to Munroe Bergdorf post about being described as a ‘weird creature‘ by the baroness. Is that true?
www.instagram.com/p/CBsxw_EAZvT/?igshid=1hvdyfqye9g76

OP posts:
HarryHarry · 16/07/2020 20:07

It’s so bizarre though- she is so reasonable about everything else!

NearlyGranny · 16/07/2020 19:54

HarryHarry, some friends are better lost, I'm afraid, and this one sounds as if she'll be no great loss. If she can't - or won't - exercise straightforward reading comprehension skills and do a bit of critical thinking, what is she bringing to the table?

HarryHarry · 16/07/2020 19:28

@RedToothBrush I tried unpacking the JKR tweets word by word but everything I said fell on deaf ears. My friend had already made up her mind that both JKR and me were t*rfs.

TheUser420 · 16/07/2020 19:10

I'm going to stress this again; when this debate comes up in polite conversation the very first point to make, before any further engagement is "have you actually read what JKR has written", and the conversation goes no further until you get an answer. If the answer is no or I don't need to or I know what she said from everywhere, you go back to to "so you haven't read it, here let's look at it now".

Good luck with that. Many years of careful practice in all areas of life have convinced most people that a Daily Mail (insert your hate rag of choice here) is a substitute for reading and understanding stuff.

See also: anti-vax and (my hobby horse) "the war on drugs".

Also bear in mind the call for "balance" which means you need a flat-earther on your panel if you are discussing GPS (for example). SO if you have a scientist who states that "female" is defined by XX chromosomes, you'll have to have "Barry" who says its down to your taste in scatter cushions.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2020 19:01

I'm going to stress this again; when this debate comes up in polite conversation the very first point to make, before any further engagement is "have you actually read what JKR has written", and the conversation goes no further until you get an answer. If the answer is no or I don't need to or I know what she said from everywhere, you go back to to "so you haven't read it, here let's look at it now".

Every attempt to not engage demonstrates a closed mind.

"If what she said is so bad, perhaps you can put it out in black and white and unpick her argument point by point so I can understand why she is wrong better".

This is about getting people to actually sit down and read what was said not what they think was said.

Remember that and your argument on this is strong and harder to avoid, and sows seeds of doubt.

JKR is eloquent and the power of her writing is her strength.

Use it.

Use direct quotes from what she said, but don't tell someone when you do. Get them to agree to the point then said, "we'll that's what JKR said too".

HarryHarry · 16/07/2020 18:54

This happened to me too OP. It’s nuts. It was the same friend who stays silent when one of her other friends says racist shit but cuts me off completely for saying sex is real.

highame · 16/07/2020 18:31

My very real worry is that this debate isn't real. It's a middle class debate. I don't know any middle class women who go to public lavs in working class areas and find out how vulnerable women are. They will be far more vulnerable if TWAW. Lavs in John Lewis do no constitute Lavs. Really haven't framed that well. Everyone talks about prisons but there are other spaces that need our attention. I think women in working class areas hold it in until they get home

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/07/2020 15:05

The language manipulation, whereby men are transmuted into '(adjective) women', allows people like Ben get away with this nonsensical argument again and again.

YY. Exactly.

DonkeySkin · 16/07/2020 13:40

Sorry to bang on, but check out this thread from Guardian writer Ben Beaumont-Thomas to see the work that 'transwoman' does in obscuring sexual power dynamics:

twitter.com/ben_bt/status/1283705306611056640

There is no material difference between a man who identifies as a man and a man who identifies as a 'trans woman'. In terms of sexual politics and in particular which sex is at risk from the other, they are the same group of people.

At one point, Ben says: Men threaten women in so many ways. Trans women (often non-white trans women) experience the blunt, murderous end of that threat all too often. Again, these women need compassion.

Translated without Newspeak, that means:

'Men threaten women in so many ways. Men (often non-white men) experience the blunt, murderous end of that of that threat all too often. Again, these men need compassion.'

What's Ben's actual point here? That men threaten women, but that they also sometimes threaten other men? That isn't news, and it isn't a reason to end single-sex provision. Notice that none of the GCs arguing with him point this out - they implicitly accept the framing that 'trans women' and 'men' constitute two objectively different groups of people.

The language manipulation, whereby men are transmuted into '(adjective) women', allows people like Ben get away with this nonsensical argument again and again.

DonkeySkin · 16/07/2020 13:19

when someone tells you 'black is white' and calls you a bigot for failing to go along with that lie, then that's a line drawn for me... I refuse to live in a 1984 world where there is no objective truth or facts. And I cannot tolerate those whose critical thinking faculties have been removed to allow this nonsense.

I agree 100 per cent Dappled but is the issue ever presented this bluntly by the 'GC' side?

People don't think they are saying, 'Black is white' when they chant 'TWAW', they think they are being kind to a very vulnerable group of males who themselves pose no threat, being symbolically or actually castrated.

I think the kinds of arguments used by women who want to preserve single-sex provision are often weak and seem almost designed to enable people to preserve their cognitive dissonance on this issue. For instance, they say, 'predatory men will abuse this' (which is easily brushed off as a hypothetical, and nothing to do with 'genuine' trans people), or 'transwomen are transwomen' (which means what, exactly? It's a nonsense platitude).

I think GC'ers need to frame their arguments as starkly as HandsOff put it: '[You] find it acceptable that girls lose places on sports teams and that males should access women's refuges and prisons.'

That's what all these nice, kind lefty people are supporting, but they don't ever need to face up to it because they can hide behind the language of 'transwomen' and thus the notion that they are championing a marginalised minority. People will always choose to support a group of 'vulnerable' males over women and girls. They don't even have to acknowledge they are being sexist because they are supporting a group called 'transwomen'. It's men, they are supporting men's rights (or rather men's demands), but few people ever call them on it.

DappledOliveGroves · 16/07/2020 10:53

No, not just you Bebanjo. I find it extremely hard to be around people of the 'TWAW' view. I cannot respect them, I cannot understand them and I wonder about their ability to think in any kind of logical fashion, when their belief is based on an out and out lie, with no basis in material reality whatsoever. I find I just cannot trust such people - what else will they come out with?

I think this is really the only debate that alienates me from others. I'm perfectly happy to disagree on political stances, climate change, Trump as president, different beliefs over religion or atheism. I have many friends with radically different political views and it's never been an issue. But when someone tells you 'black is white' and calls you a bigot for failing to go along with that lie, then that's a line drawn for me. If a 5ft, Caucasian female friend, insisted that they were a 6ft ethnically Chinese man, I'd suggest they needed psychiatric help. If a post office worker insisted they were a cardiologist and sought to practise open heart surgery, they'd be arrested. Yet a man with a penis and testicles insists they're a woman and should be welcomed into the women's changing room and my refusal to accommodate this is somehow bigotry? No, no and no.

I refuse to live in a 1984 world where there is no objective truth or facts. And I cannot tolerate those whose critical thinking faculties have been removed to allow this nonsense.

bebanjo · 16/07/2020 10:00

I think I must be on my own here.
Maybe I am just childish.
When it became obvious that a friend of mine was a convert to the TWAW cult, I found it very difficult to be around her. She believes in the transient of children. Believes that women can have penises and to say otherwise is hate speech. She posts about gender critical being akin to natzis. So I have distance myself from her.

HandsOffMyRights · 16/07/2020 09:02

Thanks to the pp for the Jenn Smith link - that is useful.

I'm dreading this conversation with a family member. I just know she will be unreasonable and insist she knows everything. She's intelligent and articulate on so many issues, but on gender politics I know she will turn into the kind of person she'd normally take task with for not basing arguments on fact and science, for not supporting the actual oppressed group.

What I find childish is that I will not fall out with friends or family who insist that men can be women. I won't demonise them for supporting a regime that denies females our rights. I won't gasp in horror that they find it acceptable that girls lose places on sports teams or that males should access women's refuges and prisons.

Yet, when the boot is on the other foot, those of us who are GC are often deemed unreasonable, lambasted for wanting to protect our rights, for NOT wanting children to be prescribed off label drugs and recommended for plastic surgery. And I find it ironic because lots of those advocates of gender pride themselves on "being kind" or progressive.

ChattyLion · 16/07/2020 08:56

OP I had a conversation with someone who really believed that trans people needed rights and didn’t have any in the UK. That transgender people didn’t have access to healthcare. This is what people are being told. It’s complete nonsense if you look into it at all but people are kind, but busy and gullible. People are used to seeing other people as baddies and writing them off- which is a fair reaction in some situations - Trump- but has got people a bit too used to letting others make the assessments for them, and agreeing with those assessments becoming a badge of identity. Think of things like Brexit. Few people I know (me included) could really take the arguments apart but we all know where we stood on the vote). So a third party asking us politely to look again at what we’ve assumed to the true can be quite emotionally challenging. Even though it maybe wouldn’t have been in other less divided political times. I don’t know. Maybe being politically blinkered by the current culture is a very normal state of the human condition.

Anyway IME people (men and women) who believe this don’t ever really think TW literally are W, because they accept biology, but they want to be kind and inclusive and respectful ‘to everyone’ and haven’t thought about what that means for women.

They can’t ever say what ‘rights’ trans people don’t have and then they start talking about school toilets and public toilets and just wanting to pee in peace.

Then you’re on to women’s rights not to feel afraid or uncomfortable in their own spaces and the class aspect of this that many people glibly taking down single-sex provision of every kind are not people who will ever be using these single sex spaces or services. And that protecting minorities abilities to use public services is exactly what ‘being inclusive‘ really actually is. But that isn’t at the expense of others, third spaces can be made if necessary.

Then I mention female powerlessness and how we need to speak up in forums where we aren’t at personal risk for doing so- Female prisons is a classic example. that’s why JKR doing so in public is such a big deal.

It’s made me more certain than ever that it’s women’s rights (and children’s safeguarding) that we cant talk about. Let that sink in. That’s a shock right there at first, in this day and age. We all like to think of social progress going forward so It can be hard to accept that it can go backwards too. And ‘on our watch’.

This all makes me more sure than ever that this is a male sexual entitlement movement we are dealing with. The ubiquity of porn and how viciously women are treated in it is adding to the toxic atmosphere for girls growing up, the stigma that has been attached to lesbianism while T is celebrated in the LGBTQI+. ‘Intersex’ (‘I’) people, meaning people born with disorders of sexual development being unwilling coopted into an identity campaign. While same-sex attracted LGB people are being told they are transphobic for their sexual orientation. But specifically it is lesbians being harassed by men with the disgusting concept of the ‘cotton ceiling‘.

It’s no wonder that increasing numbers of girls and young women want to find a way to escape from all the sexism and the lesbophobia by transition. I see all the time how even for girls seemingly managing to navigate this culture in relatively non-self-destructive ways, and who have grown up always in mixed-sex environments, it’s at the expense of much of a sense of female solidarity and this isn’t an experience they have been able to have.

The ‘not being like other girls’ cool-girl trope really needs careful unpicking because that’s just another way to get by in a misogynistic society. All of these reactions to misogyny are rational and understandable on some level, it reminds me of all the different strategies that people can try to escape bullying though.

We live in a massively sexist, misogynistic culture. That is what has to change.