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Original poster

Scared I will lose my best friend of many years ...

90 replies

Bobkitten · 15/07/2020 14:14

I have for the first time stated I’m in agreement with J K Rowling and my best friend was, I think, quite shocked and responded with ‘trans women are women.’

We had a long calm discussion (not argument) in which I put forward my viewpoint and we agreed that I would send her a few links, so she can see for herself what I’ve been reading.

I’ve done this, but I got the sense she’s horrified and I feel really worried she will write me off as a ‘transphobe.’

Not much point in posting really, but feeling on the verge of tears right now (god knows how J K Rowling is feeling).

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WeeBisom · 23/07/2020 09:54

On the topic of losing friends, trans rights activists over on a Reddit are bizarrely sharing screenshots of women who have been ostracised for having gender critical views and are claiming that this shows that being gender critical is a cult! This doesn’t make sense because it is the group who is doing the ostracising who are showing cult behaviour, not the ones who have been ostracised. This reasoning would be like Scientologists saying suppressive persons who have been shunned are really the cultists! The projection is stunning.

HermioneMakepeace · 23/07/2020 09:32

The problem is, that most people imagine a harmless old-school 'trannie' when they think of a transwoman. I find it helps them to understand by showing them pictures of these people, with the question, "Are these people women? Would you be happy for them to share a changing room with your DDs?"

Scared I will lose my best friend of many years ...
Scared I will lose my best friend of many years ...
Siameasy · 23/07/2020 09:10

Yes exactly Kit-I do sometimes think that some children and teens actually believe TWAW but there is no way an adult in their 40s does. He is prepared to pretend to believe-maybe like some people only believe in Jesus at Christmas and Easter but in this case it’s for woke medals

Kit19 · 21/07/2020 08:06

That’s the sort of thing that drives me mad Siamesy

By saying not in sports, he’s saying he knows full well TW are not women, he 100% knows it’s a lie and irrespective of that, he’s happy to hand over women’s rights including the right to name ourselves women because bluntly it doesn’t affect him.

Siameasy · 21/07/2020 07:53

“Correct” I should say

Siameasy · 21/07/2020 07:53

I get this. I have a friend, he’s really clever, a gay man. Always seemed to be pro woman. However we had to agree to disagree over the TWAW issue. But he now says he doesn’t agree with them in sports (?!) so they either are women or they aren’t.
It’s not that people don’t get it-it’s that they’ve become entrenched in a correct viewpoint and it takes time to find the courage to examine it

SerenityNowwwww · 20/07/2020 22:47

Just tell him that he’s a man so doesn’t really have a right to debate the issue with women.

doadeer · 20/07/2020 22:03

We had a very heated debate about the erosion of "women" last time we met up. He doesn't understand that women are being removed from discussions he just thinks he is being inclusive. He comes from a good place, he's a good person, I just need to do a better job explaining why as a woman I don't agree with him.

JellyFishSquish · 20/07/2020 21:31

@doadeer

My 18 year old brother just said men can have periods to me on the phone. As if this is just a fact.
This is a sign of the destruction of language and through that, the understanding of reproductive biology.

By men your brother means men and transmen? Well, since transmen are women then sure, people who are women but call themselves men can have periods. Because they are women. This is just a fact.

SerenityNowwwww · 20/07/2020 21:25

What did you say to him?

A) Are you drunk?
B) Are you on glue?
C) Are you having a laugh?

doadeer · 20/07/2020 21:09

My 18 year old brother just said men can have periods to me on the phone. As if this is just a fact.

Manderleyagain · 20/07/2020 20:28

OP I actually wasn't keen on the JKR 'wumben' tweet about periods either. I am worried about this tendency to drop the word woman from women's health, but when I saw that tweet I didn't much like it. Her essay is where it's at.

Has anyone tried this one with friends? It was one of the things that woke me up. Think through why some spaces (or other services) are female only. Why do we need them in the first place? Eg sport, a refuge or counselling following sexual assault, prison estate, being able to say you want a female to do intimate care. Then, trying to keep the perspective of the woman who needs that service to be female only, why does that no longer apply because of a male person's self perception? Bearing in mind that few tw have surgery & having medical intervention is not part of the definition of trans now anyway, why should the tw's self perception make things different for the woman?

Tw need those services too, but the question should be how do we meet both needs, not why doesn't the woman change her needs?

Pudmyboy · 20/07/2020 19:23

Hello@Trossochs: I joined recently too, am on a similar situation to you. I hope you find comfort and inspiration on this site. I have. So many well thought through points, it is an oasis of positivity for women, rare in these times.

NonnyMouse1337 · 20/07/2020 18:17

Welcome Trossochs. Smile

I think I might have been inclined to go along with the 'be kind' crowd when I was a young woman. Who knows. I also found it hard to swallow bullshit without asking any questions, so that might have ultimately been my undoing. There are definitely quite a few young women who don't subscribe to the TWAW mantra, but they might understandably keep a low profile among their peers.

Trossochs · 20/07/2020 17:57

Hello. Pleased to have joined mumsnet. I have no children, I am in my 60s and am an old time second wave feminists. I'm feeling rather sad that so many young women don't seem to know what feminism is.

moofolk · 20/07/2020 17:30

@SerenityNowwwww

Can she explain what exactly she means by those 4 little words?
This. It's always worth pushing people of what they mean by TWAW.

Ask her what it means. What is a woman?

Can you be a trans woman? Answer: no. Why? Because you're not a man.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 19/07/2020 17:25

@Bobkitten

Thank you all, I hugely appreciated all your comments. She understands the issue. I have sent some of the links I have seen in this thread and elsewhere in the feminism section. She hadn’t, as some pointed out, read Rowling's argument in its entirety. The main tweet she had seen was the ‘wimpund/woomud’ one, which she felt was unnecessarily hurtful to transmen who do not consider themselves women but nevertheless have a cervix. Taken out of context, I can appreciate why my friend came to that conclusion, but she in turn now recognises that this is about more than people’s need for validation.

I also sent her the image of all the ‘suck my lady dick’ responses to Rowling and she was horrified.

In a couple of weeks’ time, I am going to ask her to re-look at the responses from Radcliffe et al, and see if she reads them differently this time round.

Sounds like there might be some hope there. Good luck, OP, and good for you for tackling this.
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 19/07/2020 17:24

@quixote9

A few commenters have mentioned differences of opinion. This really isn't that. On one hand you have women's foundational right to physical safety (I mean, you can kill in self-defense, there's no right more basic than physical safety), as well as determining who's in their group (which all other groups get). On the other side are people who would like validation.

The degree to which we should be providing validation is a difference of opinion. Disregarding basic rights is a lot more than that. That's why there are usually criminal penalties attached to it.

This is the giveaway as to what's going on here: "
The thing that really struck a nerve with my friend was asking her whether she thought lesbians who didn’t want to date a person with physically male body were transphobic. Likewise gay men not wanting to date female-bodied people. While she initially began talking about tolerance, when I pointed out the homophobia, it suddenly dawned on her that this was plain wrong. "

When it affects gay sexuality the wrongness of erasing sex becomes more obvious to people. Erasing women's sex is invisible.

Just as women's basic rights somehow don't register. The simple reason is that women really don't register as actual human beings. Worrying about their fear or pain or dignity or desires when anyone else is involved (i.e. a man, since that's the only alternative) would be like putting the convenience of sheep ahead of commuters' need for a new road. Ridiculous. Unthinkable, meaning people just can't even think it. Certainly, you wouldn't want to be gratuitously mean to sheep for no reason. But they're not even on the map when the needs of actual people are in question.

Just look slowly and in detail at the people insisting on TWAW and "kindness" and the safety of transwomen (at the expense of women dealing with predatory men). The bit in parentheses isn't even on the map. Because women aren't.

All of this. Every word. Brava, quixote9.
HermioneWeasley · 19/07/2020 17:05

Well done OP, sounds like you’re doing an excellent job of making your case

Original poster
Bobkitten · 19/07/2020 16:38

@MyBassIsAce, that is horrendous.

OP posts:
Original poster
Bobkitten · 19/07/2020 16:37

I thought that Stephen King’s TWAW statement was in response to somebody who had seen King retweeted Rowling on how men treat women’s opinions as if they are acts of violence, and asked King to state categorically that TWAW. King unfortunately happily obliged, but to be fair, that wasn’t a response to Rowling’s tweet and I assume he would have said TMAM had he been asked to do so.

Still disappointing that King clearly can’t see the problem.

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MyBassIsAce · 19/07/2020 15:46

She said that with a straight face? She wasn't being satirical?

Completely serious.

She said she no longer had any need for the facilities provided in female toilets (eg sanitary bins); she doesn't wear make up anyway so has no need for the mirrors and, as a result, she felt she had nothing in common with women and more in common with men and so would feel more comfortable in the men's. I pointed out that the men might not want a woman in their toilets just because she no longer had periods. She assured me they wouldn't be as small minded as me.

More than that, she sent me an email the following day suggesting I sought counselling because my reaction to her saying this was 'extreme'.

I was actually very calm. I think she was referring to me saying vagina in polite company...

That was 18 months ago and we haven't spoken since.

thehumanformerlyknownasfemale · 19/07/2020 15:27

Taken out of context, I can appreciate why my friend came to that conclusion, but she in turn now recognises that this is about more than people’s need for validation.

It is mainly about the validation of men. Daniel Radcliffe proved this with his statement ''trans women are women.'' JKR was addressing periods, which TW will never experience, so why was DR defending TW and not trans men? Stephen King said TWAW. It's all about the TW, and everyone seems to ignore trans men.

Action Aid recently ignored trans men when they said biological sex doesn't exist. They said they stand for women and girls, and include trans women and girls in that. Trans women and girls who are, biologically male and therefore not at risk of FGM, period poverty, being banished to huts for the crime of menstruating, being sex trafficked, being forced to marry a man double, maybe triple their age whilst they're still children.

This isn't about the feelings of trans men at all. It's all about validating trans women.

thehumanformerlyknownasfemale · 19/07/2020 15:15

I lost mine after she stated at a rather polite dinner party that she felt it would be more appropriate for her to use the men's toilets etc as she had now gone through the menopause and was no longer a 'woman' as a result.

She said that with a straight face? She wasn't being satirical?

What the hell is wrong with people?

Original poster
Bobkitten · 19/07/2020 15:08

Sorry, in the context of the wimpund/woomud tweet, I did of course mean to refer to transmen who have periods rather than transmen who have a cervix. Easy to get my ‘people who menstruate’ and ‘cervix-havers’ mixed up ... would make sense to be able to use a word that covered both, of course.

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