Explaining why term ‘woman’ is important.

Thanks all, guess I should have been more prepared for the conversation but it took me a bit by surprise.

I think its a difficult conversation to have with daughters, because you want them to feel confident and as though they can take on the world.

Spelling out all the reasons that women need sex based rights and protections is not fun.

noblegiraffe yes a whole hash tag kicked off with such vile hate speech.

I do agree with you that 'women and other menstruators' should suffice as inclusive language (but only if the intention was to actually be inclusive rather than diminish women's capacity to speak about themselves).

@TheShoesa thank you - I have much reading to do! This is exactly what I needed.

Wasn’t there someone banned from Twitter yesterday for hate speech for saying only females get cervical cancer?

So you’re not allowed to use females instead of women either.

I agree. "X's sex is female." is the bottom line.

Female people are all different, with different likes, dislikes, strengths, interests, political views etc etc etc. An important part of our sense of self is shaped by the sexed body that we have, and how that is viewed in a sexist society, particularly the limitations that are put on us. But that also varies depending on our age, fertility status, disability status, race, ethnicity, even body type.

I think it's much clearer to use 'Male' and 'female' to refer to sex, and if you do need to describe 'gender' then use 'masculine' and 'feminine'.
And stick to only using 'woman' for 'adult human female'. If your DDs parrot 'transwomen are women', challenge them to define 'woman' in a non-circular and meaningful way. The notion that anyone is a woman who feels like one is simply devoid of useful meaning, and it destroys legal protections for vulnerable women.

And was very clear, even though I no longer menstruate I am a woman, and x’s sex is female although her gender may be male. Have I got that right?

I don't think so, personally. Gender isn't a real thing. It's just a collection of stereotypes about how females should look and behave and how males should look and behave. What we should be doing is continuing to dismantle the stereotypes, not changing people's 'gender identity' to fit the stereotypes.
Someone who is a woman but likes to wear stereotypically male clothes, do stereotypically jobs or hobbies and has personality trairs traditionally associated with men does not have a 'male gender', they are just a woman who doesn't fit the stupid stereotypes that we shouldn't still have!

Just because they don’t want to be referred to as a woman, it doesn’t mean that they get to say that no one else gets to be referred to as a woman either (except trans women).

Why are they allowed to identify as they wish and at the same time deny that right to 50% of the population?

Woman isn’t a dirty word but it is increasingly being painted that way when it refers to women.

Inclusivity would be ‘women and other menstruators’ if they’re desperate to to have that word.

hippospot The thread linked below explains a lot

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Also, there are a whole host of laws that depend on the adult human female definition of women.

Mother is under attack in Argentina IIRC.

The endgame, intended or not, is women as a class being written out legally.

I find the TRAs project quite a bit. Our legal existence is under threat of being erased.

I have been reading up on the techicalities of how that definition is quite 100% accurate. That's disengenuous, it's more than sufficient to base law on, and is absolutely the definition used in our oppression.

I hope you will explain to them that it is intended to be confusing so that they will not see through the razzle dazzle to the simple fact that objective reality has a well known transphobic bias.
Replacing sex with gender is like replacing modern medicine with prayers. Believing it yourself is foolish but demanding that others share your beliefs is inexcusable.

Caroline Criado Perez's Invisible Women = for setting out why exactly women need to be considered and how much society is still structured with men-as-default.

It won't change their minds, but at least you won't feel 'confused' about what the word woman means, and you'll send a message that you won't be tolerating their woke bullshit any more than you would tolerate them running off with the circus.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree. This nonsense shouldn't be tiptoed around and pandered to. It shouldn't be legitimised as a reasonable view.

If we lose the right to the word 'woman', we lose the right to even name sexism and misogyny, let alone organise against it.

There's so much at stake.

There are a lot of safe spaces for women that are disappearing as they have become inclusive of transwomen, including women's shelters, women's sport, women's prisons. Crime stats for women now include transwomen as women and that is how it is reported.
If we have no right to the word women as a class then you can't defend women's rights to safe space.

Throughout history and across the world today, the people who menstruate, who have their genitals mutilated, who bear children, who breastfeed, who raise children, who are paid less, who do the lion's share of all caring work are called 'women'.

No matter what you identify as, you can't identify out of that.

I do think it's hard for young women, socialised as they are to put others first. Their intuitive response to to 'care for' those who are portrayed as the underdog.

Women's bodies have the capacity to menstruate. Whether they do or not, because of illness, menopause etc doesn't matter. You can't identify out of your sexed body, although you can find your sexed body very inconvenient in lots of ways.

I agree I read the whole of JKR's text and I do not find it transphobic.

I feel overwhelmed by the trans issues being discussed at the moment and don't know where to start a) educating myself and b) helping my daughter make up her own mind in the face of some very persuasive people on the internet, each with their own agenda.

Slightly off the thread of the thread here, but I've always thought it interesting that the word woman literally means "from man"

I don't think that's correct, the etymology is more interesting than that! 'Man' was originally neutral 'person' - a male was a 'werman'. 'Woman' was from 'wifman' which meant 'female person'. But over time, males became the default person and 'man' lost its neutrality.

www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/his-and-hers-wyf-and-wer

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woman

Slightly off the thread of the thread here, but I've always thought it interesting that the word woman literally means "from man"

@pippitysqueakity I had a similar conversation with my DD recently too. She also thinks JKR is transphobic.

I feel like I need to start educating myself on trans issues as it's totally new to me.

All I know is I'm comfortable being a woman and labelled as such.

I guess it's inevitable that each generation will find the previous generation somehow lacking in "wokeness" for want of a better term.

A friend advised me I don't have to agree with my daughter. We may not be able to agree on these issues.

If anyone can recommend somewhere to educate myself in a balanced way I'd appreciate it. My DD has been watching some trans youtuber with a very strong agenda and I could do with some info to balance it out. I know how influential these people can be and I'm hoping to encourage my daughter to see things from different perspectives.