'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

I actually feel adaption demonstrates the issue quite well.

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated.

It’s now well understood that children should be told the truth, as soon as is reasonable, Adults who were lied to about adoption had massive identity crjses when the whole thing came out. Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Likewise with trans stuff. If you have “two moms” because one of your moms was born Steve instead of Shirley the kids should be told that a) Shirley is Actually male, and like any male person had/has a penis and made the sperm that fused with moms egg. Shirley just prefers that others pretend that Shirley is female And always has, that’s what being trans* means. Or if two Female bio moms that actually a) is your bio mom and B) isn’t but loves you every bit as much. And that the sperm came from (insert here).

Lying to kids is bad! Use correct terminology that anyone can understand.!

I am an adoptive parent and I love being one. We often talk about how out family came to be together.
We talk at length about how babies are born and how that happened with a different woman. And we acknowledge that she is also a parent.

If we didn't acknowledge our differences, our DC wouldn't know their birth siblings who we see regularly.

Also, as DH and I both wear glasses, my optician advised we got the children tested when they were quite young for a genetic condition. I wasn't offended or upset. I didn't feel de-parented or not valid when I explained to the optician that we don't have a genetic link. And the optician didn't give a shit either.

I am a parent but I am not a biological parent. And to become a parent was a difficult process, with all kinds of hoops to join and declarations to make.

There was no self identity as a parent, but a rigorous legal process because frankly becoming a parent was fek all to do with us and our rights and feelings, and absolutely everything to do with those of the children, so this analogy not only fails, but it's also a bit insulting actually.

@Authenticcelestialmusic, my take on the quote is that the author is implying that trans women are not regarded as legitimate women in the same way that adoptive parents are not considered ‘real’ parents, which is actually very insulting to adopters.

Lazy analogy, particularly disappointing from someone paid to think deeply about difficult issues. But I guess that's what happens when you're more interested in promoting an ideology.

My brother is adopted and knowing about his birth parents helped him understand himself and why he is different from his siblings. He has a good relationship with them, which was made possible by the way my parents approached the issue. It was a little awkward during the teenage years (at least from my perspective it seemed that way), but it's comfortable and stress free now.

My parents would have ill-served my brother had they pretended to have been his biological parents, not least because it would have denied a part of his own story that he actually needed to be told for his own wellbeing. Told at a time and in a way that was right for him.

My parents, our parents, are my brother's real parents in that they are the ones who parented him. And yet none of us ever would want his adoptive parents accepted as the same as his biological parents. For reasons I don't want to go into right now, our parents would have been quite upset about that. And rejected the notion outright. And so would my brother.

Could the analogy have been made as adoptive parents are seen as good people? Saviours? Adoptees are often told ‘you were lucky’ to be adopted (by good people). Society rarely thinks ill of those who choose to adopt, they are seen as generous and kind. Adults who are generous enough to allow a child to share their home. (I am not saying adoptive parents are not generous and kind). Just adoptees are told they are lucky. But really in a successful adoption all parties are lucky.

It is interesting that the author brought up the similarity to adoptive parents and not to the adopted child - who does have their identity changed (certainly in the past). Research into Links between hiding/denying past identity and future trauma led to changes in adoptions, life story work etc.

Sorry again if I am not explaining myself well, hopefully you get the idea!

Adoptive single parent to two here and a newbie to the trans debate so I have no agenda or axe to grind. What I would say, though, is that I very definitely do not want to be accepted as being the same as all biological parents. Some biological parents abuse and neglect their babies and children so horrifically that their lives are totally blighted, regardless of the input of love, time and commitment from fellow adopters and foster carers. This argument smacks to me of someone promoting the interests of a minority group by latching onto another minority group to garner sympathy.

As adopters, we have plenty of our own battles to fight in society; please don’t try to conflate issues and confuse people.

Oops I don't think I did that properly. Try it like this:

twitter.com/yatakalam/status/1281912778228412419

This critique of the whole article is worth reading

twitter.com/yatakalam/status/1281943218591064071

Oh am I have never had a desire to trace my history. I am so so very glad that life story books and seeing your birth family and letters etc wasn’t the done thing back then. I liked knowing my family is my family, they are my history, I am their history. I was however made aware from a very young age and have an amazing family.

I do wonder how family tree research will be affected. It’s frowned upon by some if an adopted person puts themselves into the family tree of their adoptive family (without mentioning you are adopted).

Sorry I have not read the full thread. And I’m a little off topic. I have thought about the similarities between people being allowed to change their birth certificate info. As an adopted person I cannot change my birth certificate. My birth certificate is actually a problem for some jobs as I cannot show a long certificate (I work in a heavily regulated environment), I have previously had to tell my interviewer I am adopted to explain why I cannot give the correct document. I don’t really have an issue with this as I fully understand my birth certificate is a piece of factual information that cannot be changed. It’s pretty inconvenient and means I cannot keep this information private even though I have no knowledge or recollection of being anyone other than my name! Luckily I have never been discriminated against due to it, but I can imagine it may change someone’s perception of me. I accept this is just something I have to deal with for the rest of my life. Not my fault, means little to me, but an inconvenience.

However I find it frustrating (Maybe that’s not the word) that others are allowed to change the facts on theirs and ‘lose’ their old identity. This could even be after committing a crime as the first identity. It could be after having their own children. It could be many, many years into their life. I have been me, my name, with my family, my identity, since I was several weeks old. I know nothing else and have no desire to look into it who I was for the first few weeks of my life. Yet I doubt the authorities would ever allow adopted people to change the facts surrounding their birth certificates.

The analogy is a load of rubbish in my opinion, it feels like someone is clutching at straws.

I don’t think I have explained myself well sorry. It’s just something I have mulled on from time to time from an adopted child perspective.

What everyone else has said really.

We don't get a certificate saying we gave birth to our children.
(So any time my DD's need to show their long 'birth' certificate it 'outs' them as adopted.)
When being asked family medical history we say we don't have it / it's limited as they are adopted.
We declare it to schools so they qualify for PP.
I don't go around everywhere saying people can't talk about giving birth because it is triggering, neither do I force myself into NCT groups and then demand they don't talk about labour.
We talk to the DC about their birth parents and they have a whole 'life story book' (the complete opposite of erasing someone's past).

Load of twaddle.

It's a nonsensical analogy.

Adoptive parents do not demand that biological parents don't talk about pregnancy, they don't demand that biological parents talk about "acquiring their children" rather than "giving birth" to them.

From reading the adoption board I get the impression adoptive parents get quite annoyed at people who have only parented biologically insisting they are qualified to give useful advice. There doesn't seem any desire at all to pretend the experiences are exactly the same.

topcat, that must have been difficult for everyone

I think the time is coming where all children should have both their biological parents and the parents who are to bring them up on their birth certificates.

I don't agree with birth certificates for same sex couples having only the couple's names on them; I don't agree that babies born via a surrogate should have only the names of the commissioning parents on them. In the past it was understandable that children born from donor sperm had the mother's partner's name as "father" but with the knowledge we have now that should also no longer be allowed.

With DNA tracing, hiding reality from children is no longer possible, and with all we know about the psychological harm done by lying to (indeed, not necessarily purposefully lying, but concealing knowledge from) adopted children, it should not longer be legal to lie to any children about their origins.

Birth certs should be a record for the child of his or her birth. The information on it should be accurate. Another cert - like an adoption cert, or the old short form cert - could be issued for children with complex parentage, but in no case should the birth cert - a legal document - contain untruths. Nor should it be changed at a later date to contain untruths.

My children have no access to their birth certs (not in UK), but they have adoptive certs which are factually correct. If and when they get access to their original birth certs it is important that the names of their birth parents are on them.

Sorry, off topic, but I feel very strongly that altering factual records is wrong.

Codename - your response is much more succinct. But to add to this, I recognise and accept that I am not my child's birth mum.

I was an adoptive parent, (for a short while, the placement broke down) of a child of 7.

I took on all the aspects of being a parent during that time, in much the same way as for BC.

However, adopters never seek to ignore the start in life their child had - nor could you even attempt to with an older child.

Ultimately, adoptive parents are legally parents because they parent. Transwomen cannot woman so they should not be legally women.

I am an adoptive mum and I find this exasperating.

A good adoptive parent is truthful with their child about their adoption, their birth parents and their history. Even if it is incredibly difficult. There are no fairytales for adoptive parents, no rainbows or unicorns.

We need to look our children in the eye and in a calm way describe their own history, which may include domestic violence, neglect or sexual assault or all of the above.

We attend parenting causes and describe our children's violent behaviours and are told to look for the root of the behaviour, to dig deeper and understand the underlying trauma.

At the school gate, we nod and smile as we listen to stories of babies being born

We dont try to join the NCT, infact I have found my own third space by having a supportive network of adoptive parents.

We dont ask for the word pregnancy to be banned because it is exclusionary.

We live in the real world, and some days it is really tough.

Is Chappell proposing trans women should undergo a similar vetting process to adoptive parents? Or just reaching for a lazy analogy?

It's clearly nonsense, the two situations are not comparable. However I wonder if the reason that the argument is being made is a continuation of what we've seen recently with campaigns relating to surrogacy and trans men giving birth, where there's an attempt to remove the importance of the sex of the parents on the child's birth certificate.

When I make the argument that trans widows should not have their status as "mother" usurped I often get asked "so you don't think same sex couples should be able to have children?"

I bet the person in this article would like to be recorded as an extra female parent of his children, as same sex adopters are, I believe, rather than as the Father.

Yes adoptive parents are absolutely parents

But they would not be invited to something to discuss post birth trauma for example

If their child had a genetic illness their genetic history would have no relevance

As these issues aren't part of their history with their child and nobody pretends it does

I’d like to see a move to birth certificates reflecting parenting history. Biological parents and adoptive parents. In some cases, the biological parents need their identities protected so the names could be redacted with court approval, but the line and their existence should still be reflected. I suppose a trans parent could take that approach as well, but I don’t really see the argument for their name being redacted as the biological Parent. The point of that is to facilitate getting children into safe families and there are cases where the biological parent can’t parent and can’t risk being revealed. We don’t want them taking drastic measures, so we provide an alternative. I don’t like to think about the fact that I produce sperm instead of eggs really doesn’t have the same weight as, I come from a religious family that will ostracize or even physically harm me if they find out I had premarital sex.

*analogy