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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

114 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/07/2020 13:52

Trans women are like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents. And they are accepted as such, despite the differences in how they became parents in the first place; and if society could do the same for trans women, we’d be in a better place.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/11/uks-only-trans-philosophy-professor-to-jk-rowling-harry-potter-helped-me-become-a-woman

I'd be interested in the reaction of adoptive parents or children to that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 13/07/2020 10:28

Womanhood is not a role. There is no day to day way of being a woman that unites all women, other than actually being women. Being female is not a choice we can opt out of, like parenting. It is not something we can do well, or badly. It is not something that we might want, but never have. It is the essence of us. Parenting might be something we do, but being women is what we are.

I agree with Vix who has absolutely said it all in a beautiful eloquent nutshell. Flowers

SirVixofVixHall · 13/07/2020 10:02

I agree with Chattylion
I wouldn’t have bothered posting my pre-coffee little post if I had read her very clear and articulate one first !

SirVixofVixHall · 13/07/2020 09:58

A nonsense comparison. Parenting has a certain structure to it, there are things that all parents whether adoptive or not, need to do to provide for the welfare of a child. It is a caring job, basically. Part of our lives but not our entire selves.
Of course there is a difference between the origins of a birth child and an adoptive one, but there is no difference in the parental role .

Womanhood is not a role. There is no day to day way of being a woman that unites all women, other than actually being women. Being female is not a choice we can opt out of, like parenting. It is not something we can do well, or badly. It is not something that we might want, but never have. It is the essence of us. Parenting might be something we do, but being women is what we are.

ChattyLion · 13/07/2020 09:41

I thought the points on this thread would make a good letter to the editor: www.theguardian.com/info/2015/jan/28/contact-the-guardian-letters-desk

This such a superficial analogy coming from a professional philosopher. I looked it up online because I had expected more robust ideas without such obvious shortcomings. Nope, it is just an emotive analogy.

In Sophie-Grace Chappell’s analogy it is only by blurring categories that the claims can make sense: Sophie-Grace says:

‘Nobody sensible thinks that the existence of adoptive parents undermines our understanding of what it is to be a parent. On the contrary, it extends it.’

blog.apaonline.org/2018/07/20/trans-women-men-and-adoptive-parents-an-analogy/

Yes- absolutely in a social sense (has this ever been not the case? Adoption isn’t some new thing, it goes back thousands of years..) But no, if you still want to acknowledge the reality that there are different routes to parenthood. No if you think that the biological reality of how children come into being is important because it creates its own unique set of needs and issues for biological children and their biological or genetic parents. Just No, if you think adoption as the route to parenthood creates unique needs and issues for adopted children and their adoptive parents.

Isn’t this because adoption is not proposed as the experimental, unproved remedy to a deep personal emotional conflict of the individual, nor as the remedy to an individual’s wish to be read by others as the opposite parenting status and thereby changing their outward appearances, or a remedy to wanting to be read as a person of no parenting status, or someone outside of all parenting status, or someone of a new parenting status completely?

I would counter that there isn’t a broad umbrella of adopters with a spectrum of motivations whose motivations should validly entitle them all to be adopters. No, that would be anti-safeguarding at worst and at best could not take account of the individual needs and history of the adopted child: (www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean)

Whereas S-G C says (in the same blog linked to above) ‘... the general moral rule underlying everything I say here: [is] that people’s life-choices about how they want to be gendered are (like the life-choice to adopt) a deep and serious matter for them and so must be respected.’

I don’t think many people would agree that the wish to adopt ‘must be respected’ just because it was decided in a deep and serious way. Or that it should be be respected simply because it comes from adult choices whether it was chosen deeply or trivially, ill informed or well-informed, immaturely with no idea of the consequences, or well thought through and based on other’s experiences.

The diverging point from an issue of personal gender identity, is that adoption isn’t just about what the adult wants. It’s also about the specific child and her or his specific needs and background and doing the best for that child within the available options.

Adoption is for people who want a relationship with a child and who have been thoroughly investigated by third parties as to how they propose to do that, including with interviews with the people around them and visits their home. Adopters have to go to classes to prepare them. Things that can and do go wrong are kept front and centre of the discussion as well as the great bits. There isn’t an unrealistic brave and stunning gloss put on it. Potential adopters or actual adopters aren't shut down, castigated and their reputations besmirched if they ask questions about what could, or does go wrong. If the adopter is found unsuitable by third parties then the adoption doesn’t happen. All that is obviously hard, but an important part of prioritising the child in the process, which has to be more important than paying ‘respect’ to adult wishes by automatically granting them.

The fact of adoption does not in any way infringe on the fact of biological parenting.
Adopters are not critical of and never threaten biological parents because they speak about their experiences which could cause hurt feelings to some adopters nor do adopters accuse them of ‘excluding‘ them, simply for going through the facts of pregnancy and birth and wanting to talk about it with others who share the experience or example wanting to make fertility or maternity or post natal services better.

Adoptive parents acknowledge the differences and create their own spaces to talk together as adopters about their own experiences of being parents and becoming parents, where these do not already exist. They don’t try to enter and take up the services and places where birth parents are vulnerable together, like postnatal wards, antenatal or breastfeeding classes, or where attention is focused on a mother’s own physical needs, like birthing suites or c section operating theatres.

Adopters don’t lie to their child by saying that they gave birth to that child themselves or claim that they had legal responsibility for their child prior to the adoption, adopters do the important work of painstakingly acknowledging biological truth and the often difficult relationships and realities and significance of the adoption.

They do all this for the benefit of the child’s understanding and healthy emotional development. (As well as talking about the loving relationships that the child has in their lives).

Adopters often acknowledge this difficulty in campaignIng for better professional psychological support for their children, to help them in processing traumatic loss, even while they and their children know they have been loving and caring for them, perhaps for years by this point.

Adoption is the most child-centred thing I can think of. There may be great adult rewards. Hope I am not overstepping saying all this, I am not an adoptive parent nor an adoptee, I just know some.

There’s a response by Holly Lawford-Smith to Chappell’s analogy here: medium.com/@aytchellis/the-adoption-analogy-revisited-ec0e0b28581
Haven’t had time to read it yet but will be interested to do that later.

merrymouse · 13/07/2020 06:18

It doesn’t work as an analogy because a parent has a clearly defined role and responsibility which is the same regardless of how they became a parent. A biological parent can lose legal responsibility for a child if they don’t parent adequately.

However, while you can parent, you can’t ‘woman’.

Didkdt · 13/07/2020 02:34

People dont adopt primarily because they want to be considered a parent in the eyes of others, they adopt because they have something to offer a child. They don't think ooh I want to be recognized as a parent legally so I'll adopt. They can even have given birth to children or may go on to give birth. They adopt because they want a relationship.
They adopt because they have the abilities required to parent a child who has experienced a huge and traumatic loss. They make a commitment emotionally and financially for life.
They give. It's not altruism they want to do it and they want something in return but they are acutely aware that what they get back is oftentimes not what biological parents who are functioning with meeting their birth child's needs get back.
It's a rollercoaster.
But someone was paid to say it's no different than causing fear distress and misogyny on women.
Really it isn't the same at all but it's the Guardian and they aren't famously for recognizing the benefits of adoption.

gluteustothemaximus · 13/07/2020 00:40

WeeBisom that was very good Grin

womanaf · 12/07/2020 23:42

I think it’s a beautiful analogy that proves exactly the opposite of what whoever said it was hoping.

-There’s massive gatekeeping. Rightly so.
-Additional/replacement paperwork is issued. Nothing is changed or inaccurate. (Short form birth cert simply doesn’t name parents, it doesn’t pretend adoptive parents were birth parents).
-Adopted children have to ‘out’ themselves repeatedly throughout their lives (passports, security checks etc)
-Adoptive parents are legally parents. They don’t pretend they are birth parents.
-Adoptive parents don’t tell birth parents that talk of birth or birthdays is adoptive-phobic. They may or may not celebrate additional days (gotcha etc) but they don’t pretend birthdays don’t exist/matter.
-Adoptive parents don’t elbow their way into NCT groups, or declare those groups to be adoptive-phobic.
-There are adoption support groups that are just for adopters. Because their experience of parenting is different to birth parents experience of parenting. That’s fine. No need to pretend we’re all the same.

  • Parents of an adopted child don’t know how it feels to be the birth parents of that child. They only know how they feel as adoptive parents of that child.
Adoptive parents are robust af, not permanently claiming victimhood. Etc.
PAND0RA · 12/07/2020 14:49

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated

This was never true and certainly isn’t now. Parents kept their children’s adoption secret because there was a stigma surrounding illegitimacy and infertility. It was nothing to do with children not coming to terms with biology.

People stopped concealing it as soon as society stoped branding children as bastards and adults as barren. So about half a century ago.

I can assure you that adoptees and adopters are a great deal more aware of biology that most other families.

KarenKuruma · 12/07/2020 14:40

Oh cool - so DP can just "identify" as the other parent of my DCs, and we can remove XPs legal rights without XP getting any say in it? Fab! That's so much easier than the arduous legal process I was imagining. Yay for transactivists! 🎉

Moominmammaatsea · 12/07/2020 14:21

@TeenPlusTwenties, I know! I’m sick of being patronised by ignorant people who think they are now experts on adoption (as well as the trans debate).

TeenPlusTwenties · 12/07/2020 14:17

FWRlurker Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Would that were so... Sad

PelicanDeuce · 12/07/2020 14:13

Parent, mother, father are all verbs as well as nouns. You parent, mother or father a child in being the adult responsible for the child’s upbringing.

Woman is not a verb. Unless you perform it. We will not be performed by men.

poptartsarefood · 12/07/2020 14:11

I think the analogy is flawed. Its more like a step parent deciding that now they're here your new designation is "birth" parent or "natal" parent or whatever add on that takes something from you. Mother (or father, I'm sure it happens both ways) becomes the battleground word and everyone has to have a piece.

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 12/07/2020 13:54

topcat2014 That must be such an incredibly heartbreaking situation. I’m sorry for what you went through.

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 12/07/2020 13:41

Actually I might change “predatory” to “fetishist”. Think it still works.

It analogy does miss out loads e.g. punitive blockers and medical treatment for children, but the original analogy compared to adoptive parents not adopted children.

Mycatismadeofstringcheese · 12/07/2020 13:34

I must have been musing in this in my sleep.

The analogy I’ve come up with is lets say a children’s club that is run by parent volunteers is experiencing problems with predatory males trying to get access.
The club owners then state, “only biological parents can volunteer”. Adoptive parents say “hang on we’re not the problem”, so they are let in.
Then the predatory males say, “Well if adoptive parents can identify as parents, then so can we. And we don’t have to go through years of assessment or be placed with a child, we just self-ID and should be let in. Anyone who says we’re not parents is a “SLUR””.
It starts with puff pieces in the liberal press “My journey to becoming a trans-parent”. The males then claim the word “parent” for themselves saying biological parent have to now be known as “CIS-parents”, it escalates to dead rats being pinned to the club’s door, (Vancouver Rape Centre), fake blood being thrown over the club logo (JKR’s handprints), gangs of males forming barricades around the club and banging in windows when the club is in progress along with bomb threats and getting the club defunded. People lose their jobs for saying “trans-parents are not biological parents”.
The adoptive parents speak up and say “not in my name“ but are turned on as “parentscum”.
A famous author writes an article where she says “as a biological parent I want safe spaces for my children and I want to support adoptive parents”. Hell breaks loose.

Moominmammaatsea · 12/07/2020 13:11

@FWRLurker

I actually feel adaption demonstrates the issue quite well.

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated.

It’s now well understood that children should be told the truth, as soon as is reasonable, Adults who were lied to about adoption had massive identity crjses when the whole thing came out. Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Likewise with trans stuff. If you have “two moms” because one of your moms was born Steve instead of Shirley the kids should be told that a) Shirley is Actually male, and like any male person had/has a penis and made the sperm that fused with moms egg. Shirley just prefers that others pretend that Shirley is female And always has, that’s what being trans* means. Or if two Female bio moms that actually a) is your bio mom and B) isn’t but loves you every bit as much. And that the sperm came from (insert here).

Lying to kids is bad! Use correct terminology that anyone can understand.!

FWRLurker, are you an adoptive parent, because picking up on the point you make in your third paragraph about ‘kids who are told early and have their love and trust affirmed by parents thrive’ is so far off beam in terms of the realities of modern-day that I can only assume you are not?

I think the central message from the adopters here is that we are sick of yet more ‘othering’ by people who are trying to win a non-related argument based on their ignorant and very limited knowledge of adopters’ genuine experiences of parenting.

HandsOffMyRights · 12/07/2020 10:53

@HPFA

It's a nonsensical analogy.

Adoptive parents do not demand that biological parents don't talk about pregnancy, they don't demand that biological parents talk about "acquiring their children" rather than "giving birth" to them.

From reading the adoption board I get the impression adoptive parents get quite annoyed at people who have only parented biologically insisting they are qualified to give useful advice. There doesn't seem any desire at all to pretend the experiences are exactly the same.

Agree with this.
RHOBHfan · 12/07/2020 09:31

@TeenPlusTwenties

Agree, it's not a legal fiction, it's a legal status. We are the legal parents, but no one tried to pretend we are birth parents. The child ends up with two certificates: 1) A short form birth certificate which states their new name and where and when they were born, but no parents mentioned at all. 2) A longer form certificate with Adoption Certificate writ large at the top. This is the certificate needed to get a passport (and I think for things like DBS/CRB checks).
You’re completely right, @TeenPlusTwenties ... I forgot about the short cert (never use it!)

I retract (some!) of the strength of my previous statement 😂

TeenPlusTwenties · 12/07/2020 09:29

Agree, it's not a legal fiction, it's a legal status.
We are the legal parents, but no one tried to pretend we are birth parents.
The child ends up with two certificates:

  1. A short form birth certificate which states their new name and where and when they were born, but no parents mentioned at all.
  2. A longer form certificate with Adoption Certificate writ large at the top. This is the certificate needed to get a passport (and I think for things like DBS/CRB checks).
RHOBHfan · 12/07/2020 09:25

@OhamIreally

For those upset about my use of the term "legal fiction" this is what I mean: "One example of a legal fiction occurs in adoption. Once an order or judgment of adoption (or similar decree from a court) is entered, one or both biological (or natural) parents becomes a legal stranger to the child, legally no longer related to the child and with no rights related to the child. Conversely, the adoptive parent or parents are legally considered to be parents of the adopted child. A new birth certificate reflecting this is issued, which is a legal fiction.[7]" I would equate the GRC to this.

I did not imply that the parenting of an adopted child is in some way "fictitious" as it clearly isn't.

No, a new birth certificate is NOT issued.

An Adoption Certificate is issued. It clearly says ‘Adoption’ on it.

Not sure what your source is.... but it’s still bollocks.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 12/07/2020 08:30

@RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling

I don't agree that there's a similarity at all, and to call adoptive parenting a legal fiction is offensive and inaccurate.
  • Does 'parent' mean one who produces offspring?
  • yes, that's right.
  • So in what way is an adoptive parent a 'parent'?
  • Well, they have the legal relationship of parent to the child, and they do all the things a parent does.
  • Can you describe what that means, "all the things a parent does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
  • Sure, it means the child is part of their family and household, they are responsible for their care and well being, food and shelter nurturing, and meeting their physical and emotional needs, making sure their educational needs are met, raising them to adulthood, being grandparent to their children, etc. etc.

  • Does 'woman' mean adult human female?
  • yes, that's right.
  • So in what way is a transwoman a 'woman'?
  • Well, if they have a GRC they have the legal designation of 'woman' and they do all the things a woman does.
  • Can you describe what that means, "all the things a woman does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
  • ... ... ... ...
Brilliant
OhamIreally · 12/07/2020 08:25

For those upset about my use of the term "legal fiction" this is what I mean:
"One example of a legal fiction occurs in adoption. Once an order or judgment of adoption (or similar decree from a court) is entered, one or both biological (or natural) parents becomes a legal stranger to the child, legally no longer related to the child and with no rights related to the child. Conversely, the adoptive parent or parents are legally considered to be parents of the adopted child. A new birth certificate reflecting this is issued, which is a legal fiction.[7]"
I would equate the GRC to this.

I did not imply that the parenting of an adopted child is in some way "fictitious" as it clearly isn't.

FWRLurker · 12/07/2020 03:14

This is big on my mind atm because daughter is 7 and is asking allll the sex questions. We’ve even discussed same sex (female) couples and sperm banks! As well as adoption and, for anyone.

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