'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

Saying that someone is to be treated in a certain way ie that they have the same legal rights isn’t the same as saying that they ARE the same in every single respect.

Yes and I think that's where there is an anaolgy with the Gender REcognition Act does work to an extent. The equivalent legal fiction is

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender"

but just as adoption law recognises that the biological reality persists (e.g. you can't marry your blood sister, your birth certificate isn't changed etc) so the biological reality is stil recognised despite a gender recogntion certificate (e.g. a transman who gives birth is still the mother).

[quote TinselAngel]Compare it to this, from France:

www.womenarehuman.com/man-scores-win-in-legal-fight-to-be-recognized-as-mother-on-his-childs-birth-certificate/[/quote]
Very interesting article tinsel

“ An adopted person is to be treated in law as if born
as the child of the adopters or adopter."

Saying that someone is to be treated in a certain way ie that they have the same legal rights isn’t the same as saying that they ARE the same in every single respect.

I appreciate the conversation has moved on a bit but just in relation to the 'legal fiction' bit above. I can see why people find it offensive as of course adoptive parents are parents. The legal fiction bit is quite specific (or at least that's how I've always seen it) to this bit of the law www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/38/section/67:

"An adopted person is to be treated in law as if born as the child of the adopters or adopter."

That bit is the legal fiction as of course it is not true but has useful practical consequences e.g. in relation to nationality or intestacy laws. It does not, however, obliterate the biological reality e.g. the laws on incest still recognise your original blood relationships even if your legal relationship has ended through adoption.

Compare it to this, from France:

www.womenarehuman.com/man-scores-win-in-legal-fight-to-be-recognized-as-mother-on-his-childs-birth-certificate/

This is not a genuine attempt to make an analogy with adoptive parents, it's a pitch to be be able to usurp trans widow's status as the only mother of their child.

What a grim possibility Tinsel. This would not be putting the needs of the child first either - unlike adoptive parents. It is not healthy for children to be forced to lie and to deny their own reality in order to prop up the identity of an adult.

I'm sorry, but I think you're all missing the point.

This is not a genuine attempt to make an analogy with adoptive parents, it's a pitch to be be able to usurp trans widow's status as the only mother of their child.

I really wish some TRAs would read this. Sadly its too full of common sense

As excellent as WeeBisom’s analogy is- the reality is so grim that I don’t know if it can even be made to fit into it, such as:

-‘Cotton ceiling’ creepy male encroachment into same-sex attraction between women by recasting lesbians as ‘transphobic’ unless they will have sex with women who possess lady dicks
-Self identified women sexually abusing natal female prisoners in women’s prisons
-children and young people being encouraged online into permanent irreversible changes, NHS fulfilling these requests without lengthy counselling, fully informed consent or proper follow up
-women’s sports comps being won by self identified women competing in categories for women
-women’s awards and opportunities- even ones established to address sex disparities, like ‘Women’s Officer’, being open to all who identify as women

• climate of fear where women lose out on work (Maya Forstater case) if they question or disagree
• Girl guiding UK effectively becoming ‘Femininity Guiding UK’ by letting in boys who identify as girls and managing out any guides who identify as boys
• constant threats on women who speak out, such that freedom of speech is effectively only open to men - JKR, any woman who is on Twitter and comments on this ever

Hmm two major differences are (1) adoptive parents would never try to gaslight anyone by saying that they are biological parents; and (2) if you point out that there is a difference between adoptive parents and biological parents, adoptive parents don't en masse attack you with death threats, rape threats, unwanted photos of penises, porn, photos of baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire and 'choke on my dick' messages.

A bit off topic, but this bit of the article is really odd:

"For many years, says Chappell, she buried her worries over her transgender feelings, but gradually they surfaced. Among other triggers was Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone: “The mirror of Erised … struck me as a really heartbreaking image for my own condition,” she wrote in her letter to Rowling. “If I looked in the magic mirror and saw myself exactly as I most long to be, what would I see?”

The answer, she goes on, is “a woman, of course”. Which is why she was shocked at Rowling’s recent essay saying trans activism was dangerous to cis women."

The whole point of the mirror of Erised is that it is a trap. It doesn't show you what you need, it prevents you living your life.

"Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad"

kids who are told early and have their love and trust affirmed by parents thrive

I think the problem was that many kids don’t thrive, even though adoptive parents do all the Best Practice things. (which yes, in the UK too would involve making sure they understood their life story.)

@FWRLurker

That’s nothing like adoption in the UK. That’s why people are disagreeing with you. It’s not about being “ on the same side “ , its that what you said about adoption isn’t relevant in the UK, where most MN posters are from.

If people are taking about a different country they usually say so upfront, to avoid confusion.

I’m not and adoptive parent. I Certainly never meant to hurt feelings Of adoptive parents, for that I am sorry. I’m a little confused because it think we’re on the same “side” of this debate. The original claim is that trans ID is like being an adoptive parent because “both want to be seen as legitimate”. That part is clearly nonsense. But if that person thought about it for two second, they’d realize their analogy works against them, because the trans person, but NOT the adoptive parents, wants to be lie about reality. The transwoman (transman) wants everyone to pretend they are literally female (male) and to tell the truth is hurtful. The Adoptive parents on the other hand know that lying to their children About their biological reality harms the child, and others to do so Is harmful.

I just that trans people need to embrace reality. Just like adoptive parents do every single day.

kids who are told early and have their love and trust affirmed by parents thrive’ is so far off beam in terms of the realities of modern-day that I can only assume you are not?

I’m from the US so perhaps that’s why. Someone earlier mentioned that UK and US are different in terms of adoption. In the US a “typical” adoption is One in which a baby is handed over Immediately after birth, the arrangement already decided before birth. And until the last few decades, doctors and adoption agencies advised parents It was best for the child to pretend they are the bio parents until they are adults, and that’s still the culture in some places. This has seriously messed people up.

Nowadays in the US typical adoption case the best practice is not to lie to your adopted child, and I think that is obviously an improvement.

Likewise, I also think it is good for trans people to be honest about their sex, for their own mental health and that of those around them. But you won’t see a trans activist agree with that.

I am offended by the analogy. As an adoptive parent we discuss the kids birth parents on a regular basis and given their ages as matter of fact and naturally as possible.
Their birth parents never did any 'parenting'. In fact they made poor decisions with regards to drink and drugs which resulting in domestic violence (from both of them) and caused long term physical damage to both children who had to be taken away from them at birth.
I feel pity and empathy for both of them as its a result of their own upbringings but the analogy sounds as if adoptive parents are less than biological ones. In most cases this is not the case.

Thre really is no group of people, no situation, that transactivists will not twist beyond all recognition to try and ocnvince the world that blacvk is white.

One of my best mates has an adopted son. She gets SO mad when this one gets brought up. So mad infact that I have never really found out her whole opinion on it because..I don't want to upset her anymore than she already is whenever some idiot tries this angle.

I didn't realise that this has been Chappell's argument for some time.

Sorry, it really isn't the gotcha that you think. I would have expected an Oxford-educated professor to have come up with a more more robust theory

WeeBisom covered it perfectly.

medium.com/@aytchellis/the-adoption-analogy-revisited-ec0e0b28581

The response by Holly Lawford-Smith, an Australian academic, to Chappell’s analogy is a good read on this: medium.com/@aytchellis/the-adoption-analogy-revisited-ec0e0b28581

Spoiler alert for anyone short of time: In conclusion, the adoption analogy seems to break down at virtually every point

Its a rubbish comaprison.
I'm both an adoptive and a biological parent. I know I'm not my Dd's bio parent, I'm not trying to pretend I am. I am however her legal parent and will be as firece and protective with her as I was for my bio sons.
I'm not trying to pretend to be anything I'm not, I'm not taking away anything from a parent who is a bio parent.

I am not remotely interested in Sophie-Grace Chappell telling women about how our biological reality is a concept.

I do note however that Chappell's wife, who has remained in the marriage, is a deeply devout woman. It's interesting how often religion and being a 'supportive wife' of a late transitioner goes hand in hand.

What others have said. Parent is a social role, a function and a relationship as well as biological reality. It can be one of those things without the others. E.g. a biological parent might not act as a parent, while someone not related to the child might act as a parent. 'Woman' isn't a role though. It's a biological reality.