Kasabian hot on the heels of Richard Madeley

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Not a fan. But I guess they could well carry on without him in this instance as the guitarist can sing and writes most of the tunes. In most bands, trying to carry on without your front man would be difficult.

Not advocating or condoning domestic abuse in any way... but yes bands don't tend to kick out members for this sort of thing.

Do we know the age of the child? That could be a small but nevertheless important consideration.

Sorry if this has already been discussed - it's a long thread!

And Dido I didn’t even mention the first statement. I said their second statement had some good bits and that it also could have gone further.

I think it’s better if you can stick to what people have actually posted, otherwise it looks a bit like creating straw men to argue against.

Absolutely what redtoothbrush said. I'm so sick of having to perform my values to an unimpeachably high standard on social media. I'm a dick sometimes, most of us are. Sometimes I use terms or a tone that doesn't quite hit the spot or that could be interpreted hurtfully.

What the takeaway message is from Jeans op is 'you won't get it right, you can't get it right, so best just zip it'.

If I ever find myself the victim of any crime, please don't keep silent for fear of not saying the right things. Say what you think. Open the conversation. Be wrong even, but don't sit on your hands because everything is now cancel-able and you don't want to risk it. This is entirely the wrong direction we're heading in.

Ps same goes for if I'm bereaved. Don't cross the road to avoid speaking to me because of 'ten things not to say to a bereaved person'. Just talk to me, say weird shit, put your foot in it, be a dick. God knows I am.

I didn't miss that fact, stated it quite clearly in my first response.

My point is that the first statement was not needed. Waiting might have given them a better shot at one clear statements.

Then again, if he had lied to them....but they know him, I don't and maybe, just maybe, there is a case for them not to have said anything at all!!

The continuing disagreement shows it's a tricky situation for friends and family to navigate!

It appears to escaped several people's notice that the trial was ongoing when the first statement was issued. Saying anything stronger or sacking him at that point could have prejudiced the result. Would that have made Jean and Chatty Lion happy?

Quite.

This hadn't escaped my thoughts.

Kasabian said they had not been able to give details before the proceedings, but women's groups claimed their statement had "minimised" the seriousness of the crime and the band should have waited to comment.THAT! 100%. Much as Jean said in her OP

Well as opinions are apparently welcome I disagree with that statement. Kasabian did not have to say anything at all. It appears to escaped several people's notice that the trial was ongoing when the first statement was issued. Saying anything stronger or sacking him at that point could have prejudiced the result. Would that have made Jean and Chatty Lion happy?

Didono. it’s not absolutely not ‘man-hating’ or ‘attack’

Looks very much like it to me. Opinion and all that. I sincerely hope the band don't see this thread.

You , general you , go on about men needing to be "feminist allies" yet when they do it gets analysed to this level of pulling apart / reinventing what they said/ going to extraordinary lengths to find fault.

Jean's "editing " of their statement is every bit as spiteful and vindictive as the TRA "editing" of The Harper's Bizarre letter.

Never google Joy Division then.

I've found the band questionable after discovering the meaning of their name. I find it unsavoury that they glamorise someone implicit in murder.

I read that and saw...

ADHD
Alcoholism
Personal Issues
Struggling
Mental Health

Almost a full house of excuses in with him recognising what he was becoming and needing family and friends to support him get through it all

As Debbie Huighes said "Often an abuser picks on the people around them that are vulnerable so alcohol or mental health cannot be blamed for their actions. There is still that level of conscience to decide who they are going to be abusive towards.

And then... another sentence

Kasabian said they had not been able to give details before the proceedings, but women's groups claimed their statement had "minimised" the seriousness of the crime and the band should have waited to comment. THAT! 100%. Much as Jean said in her OP.

On balance, I get that Jean has a hard stance and that she may have overstated this, but, in essence, I agree with that last statement. Had the band waited and not rushed to distance themselves (save their careers etc etc etc), they may have made a single, more meaningful statement!

Sorry I read Tom Meighan’s statement.

I read it earlier. It’s not what he’s ‘becoming’ - it’s what he has already become.

I do take issue with his statement. It’s a brief intro, apology, short admission of culpability then a few paragraphs of me me me and some excuses.

He would have done far better to go with brief intro, admission of personal problems, apology then a bit more on his culpability.
But hey...

Still think the band did fine.

Dido no. it’s not absolutely not ‘man-hating’ or ‘attack’ to say someone could have written more in a public statement or could have written it differently. This is a site for opinions. It’s a public statement. Nobody has to agree with those. But we don’t need tired sexist put-downs either.

The public includes people affected by DV at some point in their lives including right now. DV is a particularly common problem including right now, as even the government acknowledges.

Kasabian probably had to issue a neutral statement initially, as they did not want to in any way interfere with the legal process.

Feminists wonder why they are seen as man- haters- there's posts on here which justify that

?! Why is women being critical about responses to domestic violence perpetrated by men on women, ‘Man-hating’ in your book?

Because it isn't being critical- it's pulling apart and looking for ridiculous, god only knows what the band should do for no reason other than to attack them.

The band's actions were correct at each stage. They sacked him and when it was legally appropriate to do so made a statement condemning him.

You know she didn't support the prosecution and is standing by him and wants to resume the relationship right ?

I think the response from the rest of the band was great - they explained why they had to say "personal issues" until the legal action was concluded and they have very strongly condemned it as soon as they could and don't seem to be entertaining any "trying again once he's been to rehab" like the victim.

Well said @RedToothBrush. I agree with everything you've said.

Jean, I couldn't give a shit.

We need a range of views, including some more extreme to push things along and move the Overton window, but if that happens too quickly or too forcability, it also poses a risk of an extreme backlash the other way because it doesnt have a broad enough base of support of the core idea. That's why broad consensus is just so important. Without it we don't get meaningful change and long lasting change, we like it or not, 'cos reality'.

This is unavoidable in society with a range of different people, interests and priorities.

This does not mean I support DV nor do I minimise it. It means I view the way to end it differently and it means I think it's a much more complex route to the same eventual outcome.

You interpret this as a 'red flag'.

shrug

I would be pretty pissed off if my name was splashed around the press by my husband's employers after HE had committed a crime.

I've been the victim of a crime. I've been identified in the press as part of reporting of that crime. It makes you feel more vulnerable and exposed.

I think condemning the act and the perpetrator is exactly the right tone to hit.

They could have continued with him in the band to preserve their own careers. It seems to be what the misguided fans are calling for. They didn't. They made clear they aren't happy to work with him. I think that sends a strong message.

I do think it's wrong to criticise the victim but that's not at all what the bad have done.

It is very sad for the child. Would it be usual for the child to stay with the mother if she is staying with the man?

As someone who doesn't usually dip into the feminist board, I found reading this jarring...and alarming. If someone has experienced abuse they can develop hypervigilance and see 'danger' /attack where there is none. I have every sympathy with victims/survivors of abuse but blaming a band for a statement that would have been written and released by a legal team, pre-trial then attacking them when they have done all they could and jeopardised their own futures financially to do so... That way madness lies.

The opinion supporting that narrative is what leads to extremists. No open dialogue, no open mind... 'I'm not bothered 99% of people disagree with me'... Detrimental.

Jean, youve obviously got an opinion that's very very hard line. I understand why you have those views.

You can try and smear me all you like and insinuate I'm some sort of 'male sympathiser' but quite frankly I don't care.

That's just more puritanism and I've bloody had enough of ideological purity over pragmatism and an acknowledgement that people can have really good intentions whilst reserving the right to be human and not utterly perfect.

I think taking such a hard and frankly unattainable standard as a minimum is extremely counterproductive in the long term. Given that authoritarianism in general is bad for women and has resulted in this ridiculous 'cancel culture' which removes the thought process behind public condemnation and reduces it to nitpicking words rather than meaningful and appropriate measured action and civil debate I'm loath to support it unconditionally even in this area.

Its extremely toxic and particularly l to the detriment of women I'm not sure how it helps. Women are consistently asked to perform and be held to higher standards than men which are often unachievable. I'm not sure how applying that to men, helps to improve things for women. It strikes me as a race to the bottom in terms of a purity spiral.

There are times to be critical and times to go 'OK maybe they didn't go as far as I'd like or hoped, but actually I can see they really have tried and got the right idea, which might help pave the way for more doing the same and general progress in that area'. Otherwise it just ends up being perceived as just kicking people for the sake of kicking them and doesn't motivate others who think 'well even if I try and do the right thing, I'm going to get shit for it'. Which actually alienates. I really do think the intention and action (rather than purely a lame statement saying the 'right things') is 'good enough' from the band.

The other band members have been strong in their messaging.

'Guilt by association' as an attitude isn't going to improve anything. We often are powerless to the actions of those around us even if we've tried to persuade or influence to the contrary.

Thats not how human psychology works.

The rest of the band should be able to try and resume a career. If they can't it only reinforces the idea that it's financially and socially better just to suck up domestic violence of your friends and associates because if you don't, you are fucked.

I'm sorry if that doesn't 'cut it' enough for your high standards as a view, but I view it as the way to progress in the long term rather than merely participating in this fashion of public demonstrations of meaningless statement making. I think 'reasonableness' is an often overlooked and undervalued value at present. I fear that failure to be reasonable will ultimately come at a cost for many.

Have the rest of the band acted reasonably even if they aren't perfect in the eyes of everyone? Have their actions been genuinely intended to make the point that they really don't condone this type of behaviour? I do not think it's without personal cost either. There is a bigger picture here at stake. I certainly think it's yes to both counts and I'm not going to push it further in demanding they do more or that they have somehow 'failed to do enough'.

That way just lies madness.