Let's Talk about what Patriarchy Is

Is the idea of social democracy and of society seeing child raising as a societal responsibility just mind blowing?

Yes. Absolutely mind blowing, that any women would see fit to pass off their responsibility of raising their own child to other people. I know 'shirking' is a thing nowadays but this just takes the biscuit!

If women are to blame for babies and their economic impact then logically I would assume we are blaming women for this but I hope to be wrong.

I dont understand, are you saying babies are a problem that someone needs blamed for?? Bizarre. confused

Low cost and free childcare means women who are mothers generally do work outside the home. That's the whole point.

Again, I don't think there are these huge numbers of women you claim that are all desperate to get away from their children and to work instead. If thats what you want to do shouldn't we be just encouraging women not to have children to begin with, Problem solved.

If women are to blame for babies and their economic impact then logically I would assume we are blaming women for this but I hope to be wrong.
Maybe a woman-blaming/denial combo?

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/14/we-are-facing-the-decriminalisation-of-warns-victims-commissioner

This has its own thread.

So whatever is going on here it's not evidence of "the patriarchy" at work I assume?

Particularly interested to hear @Alisonjabub 's take on this because I am in grim yet mischievous mood this morning......

I logged myself out for a few days accidentally, and then somehow signed in to an old account? Anyway, goose sorry for suggesting the thread and then not participating. I did also feel unequal to it.

According to this 'Adovasio, J. M., Olga Soffer, & Jake Page, The Invisible Sex: Uncovering the True Roles of Women in Prehistory (Smithsonian Books & Collins (HarperCollinsPublishers), 1st Smithsonian Books ed. 2007 ' no true matriarchy has ever existed.

Lots of Indonesian women have said to me that their society is woman-centred and they do seem to have a very different approach to Islam than people from the middle east.

Is the idea of social democracy and of society seeing child raising as a societal responsibility just mind blowing?

This is a model in many countries.
When you look at the top ten countries for women, most are nordic countries with a social democratic financial/welfare model.

It isn't 'asking men for help'. It is free or low cost childcare at the point of use. It would be like saying the NHS was 'asking men for help'.
It only makes sense if you believe that women don't work outside the home and are therefore pointless greedy monsters.
Low cost and free childcare means women who are mothers generally do work outside the home. That's the whole point.

Alisonjabub
hot air as a strategy that perfectly encapsulates all your posts.

Has there ever been a society since humans evolved which hasn't been patriarchal?

They are quite literally saying "we need men to subsidise us so we can go out to work". Does someone want to tell them how backwards that sounds. It wouldn't be workable.

Where do you get that from? How about "we need everyone to contribute to the upbringing and well-being of future generations so that the burden of providing free labour doesn't continue to fall disproportionately on women"?

That list was written in the 1970's, we still dont have any of them, do try to keep up.

[quote Thelnebriati]The 7 demands of the UK women's liberation movement.
Why do women need to demand these?
How many of them have been achieved?
Are there any basic human rights men need to demand?

1 – Equal pay now
2 – Equal education and job opportunities
3 – Free contraception and abortion on demand
4 – Free 24hr nurseries
5 – Financial and legal independence
6 – An end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality
7 – Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women

finnmackay.wordpress.com/articles-i-like/the-7-demands-of-the-uk-womens-liberation-movement/[/quote]
God, whichever movement this is they really don't have a good grasp on reality. They are quite literally saying "we need men to subsidise us so we can go out to work". Does someone want to tell them how backwards that sounds. It wouldn't be workable. These women have just taken to believing that they don't need mens support and have replaced it with support from the state, whos money they think grows on shrubs.

They come out with these 'solutions' that are just words as they havn't considered for a second the ways in which any of these things might work. They just basically stoke women up in this angry collective with hot air as a strategy, relying on women not being versed enough to check out the viabilities themselves.

I also think we could pretty much agree that no institutions in the west perpetuate male dominance and aggression towards women any more than they do aggression by women towards men.

would urge people, especially if you have sons to take a step from this dangerous and irrational group of women before they really cause some harm.

For some reason this put me in mind of that Harry Enfield sketch
"Look at these venomous harridans...they went to university. Hard to believe they're all under 25. "

No, not "any" discussion of patriarchy, specifically your dismissive and ostentatious word salad that obscures the material truths of male supremacy in a snobbish attempt to philosophize them.

Your conclusion drawn in the first post:, "it just means some undefined and often mysterious set of somethings that result is the disadvantaging of women in some way."

Male violence is not undefined or mysterious. The women here don't fall for postmodernist sophistry and gobbledegook like your entire post at 13:33:39, so much useless bloviating to avoid actually discussing the material conditions of women's lives.

"I think, myself, we have come pretty much as far as is possible in flattening out the differences."

How revealing to project your belief in your own near perfection and why you feel you have nothing more to learn or new ways to grow as a person. You think you're as good as humans get. LOL!

The 7 demands of the UK women's liberation movement.
Why do women need to demand these?
How many of them have been achieved?
Are there any basic human rights men need to demand?

1 – Equal pay now
2 – Equal education and job opportunities
3 – Free contraception and abortion on demand
4 – Free 24hr nurseries
5 – Financial and legal independence
6 – An end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality
7 – Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women

finnmackay.wordpress.com/articles-i-like/the-7-demands-of-the-uk-womens-liberation-movement/

Sadly I feel that although progress in some areas is being made its only getting worse for girls in other areas particularly social media perfection, the awful way women are depicted on screen in easily accessible online porn and the disposable culture of online dating apps. Capitalism and the patriarchy are a toxic combination.

Things have got better in some ways but that fact is that from birth girls are taught that so much of their value in life is based on how they look. For many gender roles are very still pretty rigidly defined in childhood.
We then spend their lives having our bodies objectified and scrutinised.

We are making progress but our reproductive organs, periods, troubles, menopause are only starting to be demystified and for many they are still seen as shameful and it is still the case that our pain isn't seen as valid. You only have to look at what has just happened with the vaginal mesh scandal on the NHS.

In many ways the patriarchy is just as damaging to boys. They are expected to conceal their hurt and emotions from a young age so the only acceptable emotion they can show is anger. Damaged like boys who grow up to be men who have been taught to view women in terms of how attractive and disposable they are who are also full of suppressed emotions. And so the cycle continues!

I will fight

Until no one is denied medication for pain because they are a women
Until no girl is teased for being good at maths
Until no one is left unemployed because they may get pregnant
Until rape is not seen as acceptable in any circumstances
Until no child suffers FGM

Should I go on?

The issue is not to change the fact of being men and women

What does being a man or a woman mean to you, if they have nothing to do with biology and the tendencies and consequences that arise as a result of that? Are you arguing for the adoption of a rigid or enforced equality of outcome, or maybe to suppress all differences that are naturally occurring?I think, myself, we have come pretty much as far as is possible in flattening out the differences.

You're confusing the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species with the inevitability of a particular social system. Humans have created many different kinds of societies. Basically you're taking a deterministic view, biology is destiny

Yes, there is a kind of biological destiny or determinism.......unless you subscribe or seek for trans-humanistic ideas. Even in matriarchal societies, especially in matriarchal societies, motherhood is key.

We don't necessarily think of those things as transhumanist, they are too familiar maybe, but the same way of thinking is very interested in things like artificial wombs, to finally free women from the physical (and maybe emotional?) burden of pregnancy

And that way of thinking is also linked to the idea of womb transplants for men, and to the idea of 'fathers who give birth' ( Freddie/Seahorse).

I don't think its obvious that any 'crisis' exists at all. Conviction rates for rape are in line with other offences such as robbery and theft, so I really don't know where youve got the idea that the conviction rate is so abysmal.

What the actual fuck? I see why people have left this thread. Conviction rates for rape are below average, and, more importantly, the number of cases even going to court have gone down. My god, have you lived under a rock?

and this report tries to justify reduction in prosecutions on basis that more women are reporting sexual crimes so everyone is just soooo busy.

OP I actually don't understand 90% of what you say - lots of fancy words but very little sense. But it's clear you think that patriarchy is not a problem. why did you even start this thread if you didn't want discussion?

This would be a tremendous victory for the females that are killed each year and who's voices aren't heard in the most vulnerable, innocent time of life.

What does this even mean? That abortion of female foetuses are bad but not boy foetuses? This thread is mind blowing.

Is patriarchy still a useful term? Does it map to “systemic sexism” - which may be w more useful term as it’s clear, still applies to men and women and is analogous to “systemic racism” that is well understood.

"Anyone can apply a name to a set of things they see or feel or experience and say that is the cause of all of them."

They're named men. Men are causing the harms women are seeing and experiencing.

patri + archy = men harming women by institutionally declaring women inferior and therefore exploitable.