Guardian back into the fray

This is the most revealing line, Blue

"a trans and feminist dialogue can only work through respectful alliance, not divisiveness. It can only be effective through abandoning the dead-end of territory-claiming wars over biology and rights."

But yes, you're basically spot on.

Didn't read it but I imagine something like "shut up women and help fight my, I mean our, battles".

I was particularly confused by this

As both feminist and transfeminist writers have long pointed out, we are not immutably tethered to an innate experience of womanhood or manhood simply by being designated an F or an M at birth.

So, is writer saying then that the only real thing that connects me to all the other women in the world is my genitals and the oppression they bring? I thought being focused on genitals was transphobic? If it is just my sex then surely that confirms that trans women, are not, and never can be women?

Or are they saying everyone experiences that everyone experiences wo/manhood differently, in which case is it not actually any sort of 'hood' and in fact just life. We all experience life differently.

Either way I'm not swayed by anything written in this article!

This is their last grasp of the lifejacket before the whole ship sinks.

We're way too far out now to fall for their poor me BS. They aren't waving, they're drowning.

To my shame I do still check out The Guardian's food writing..

@terryleather

To be frank, Felicity Cloake is the only Guardian columnist that I still read. Her "How to cook the perfect ..." column does have some really good recipes.

well said!

True enough Goosefoot , if any article might cause the bien pensant of the Guardian to clutch their pearls then it's closed for comment

There are still some good commenters, but they don't have comments on those articles, so...

To my shame I do still check out The Guardian's food writing...I hate what its become as it's where I used to hang out online before I found my way here.

Even at the time of the Suzanne Moore/Julie Birchill incident the comments almost all toed the TWAW line. I only realised when I came here that it was because they moderated away all dissent...I can remember cheering inside on the rare occasion any such comment got through and those that did would be very mild in their questioning. Fae and Kaveney were regular contributors too.

There used to be some great posters btl line but if I venture there now it seems to just be woke blokes, I'm presuming any women with sense left a while back. Having said that, I was reading something there last week, possibly something LGB based and I noticed quite a few dissenting voices btl which gave me hope.

Can't see they've mentioned it on twitter...but they have highlighted the Halle Berry story. Most of the commentators aren't impressed

The Guardian doesn't allow comments on any article where they think their readership might have significant disagreements with the party line. The stopped them for issues relating to Israel a long time ago, and they haven't allowed them for feminism articles for years either.

Pressed post too soon.

It seems the Guardian doesn’t have a great track record on finding worthwhile voices in this debate.

See also Hannah Mouncey, given column inches, only for it later to transpire that the women on Hannah’s handball team didn’t want to share the showers with Hannah’s column inches.

Yes it is, Heist

Like Jane Fae, for example. Their last contribution to the Guardian seems to be that piece in defence of extreme porn. Weird

Or James/Jamie Shupe. You can still find the article he wrote as Jamie for the Guardian about being the USA’s first legally “non-binary” person. Then if you google James Shupe, you can find his article talking about how it was all a lie and he has AGP.

A major tell is Mariella Frostup's godawful advice column. They have to allow reader comment on that one - so the readers can offer their advice to the person writing in - and there is a stark divide between the male and female commenters. The men tend to be all "BDSM is a woke choice, your wife is just a prude", 'if his wife won't give him blow jobs she's denying him his needs " etc . Woke bros, though I'm sure they're too middle aged to consider themselves as such. The women, on the other hand, wouldn't be out of place here. They're often quite clear eyed about the sexism at play in these relationships, and unafraid to take the woman's side against Mariella's token wokism.

It's very illuminating. You can see what the Guardian is afraid of. Inconvenient women are alive and well over there, they're just not being given a platform to speak

What's the heavy weight perspective?

Perhaps one of those individuals who gave evidence to the trans inquiry which led to the self id proposal?
Like Jane Fae, for example. Their last contribution to the Guardian seems to be that piece in defence of extreme porn. Weird.

I mean, I'd say that my height has influenced how I interact with the world and thus my personality in some ways, and that's a far less profound aspect of my physical being than my sex.

I have no idea, outside of Butlerian nonsense, what it could be.

Of course people's experiences are tethered to being embodied. How could it possibly be otherwise? We're not brains in jars like the former presidents on Futurama.

This is the heart of it, isn't it? It's crazy, it goes against all known neuroscience, all science of any kind, but TRAs are essentially dualists, they instinctively believe mind and body are separate entities.

Too much time on the Internet and living in a constant dissociative state will do that to you I guess.

If the person who wrote that is an academic then perhaps not. Speaking of privilege on another thread though, I'd say that having your poorly written blog-like posts published in a national broadsheet just because you're trans would definitely qualify as evidence that you have quite bit of it.

It's some time since I read the Guardian. I found it had become 'Janet and John try a bit of Socialism' . Listening to what you're saying about some of it's trans debating stance, I wonder when they will work out that women read newspapers and that women are starting to look at the Trans debate and realise it isn't what they thought. They thought it was some benign people who had done a full transition - like me, until I did a bit more research. The Guardian needs to take care that it doesn't lose another tranche of readers, and are women really reading a newspaper that prints stuff by Owen Jones, the shouty, opinionated arse. New to this, and old😊