Showing that feminists don't all hate heterosexual male sexuality

@Alisonjabub You are kind of making the whole argument you appear to be against. Societal norms are and should be entirely negotiable, and yes individuals are special. We are all the center of our own worlds after all.

Specifically when it comes to parenthood there isn’t anything like the pressures on men compared to women. Society would mostly ignore it if I abandoned my child, and merely showing up gets praised. Women on the other hand absolutely every choice and decision is scrutinised. Even as a non feminist I can see that isn’t fair nor equal.

ContentiousOne

We're good! I knew it was a misunderstanding.

Not a lot of people know that. Good employers do, however.

I hope mine does by now - having successfully retained women with decades of experience and knowledge in our specialised skills, while at some points haemorrhaging men to competitors.

I find that this is the one topic I feel like I cannot talk about with other feminists, who tend to adopt Third wave choice feminism, suggesting that women caught up in income traps just need to choose better, or get sneered at for being a little mummy.

Childcare is incredibly complex. Women's work lives are complex. Mothering is complex.

But anyway, apologies for getting aggro.

Men actually leave jobs just as frequently for a whole variety of reasons as do women of childbearing age. Study after study has shown this for many decades now. Often it's for promotion, of course, but that doesn't make any difference to the employer, who has to advertise, recruit and train a new employee just the same .

. In fact, a woman may be keen to come back after maternity leave so a young woman is a safer employment bet than a young man. Women as a statistical class are more loyal employees and stick with a company longer than men. Women aged 50 and over are the most loyal employees of all and the readiest to take risks with innovations in working practices and adapt to change.

Not a lot of people know that. Good employers do, however.

There are systemic biases. The assumption you make that the woman will be more of a 'financial risk' than the man is an example.

That wasn't actually a bias, that was based on facts that are fairly difficult to get around. Obviously the chances of a women of childbearing age leaving to have a child for several months or 1 yr + is significantly higher than that of a man doing the same.

The first thing you might learn, is the fact that Mumsnet actually welcomes all women

Did you actually think I didn't know that MN welcomes people from all walks of life? I didn't think we were down to stating the obvious, however there is a reason its not called PeoplesNet, and so its pretty clear thats its primarily aimed at....Mums
It’s probably best if you read a few of the threads on the FWR board and you might have a better understanding of what feminism is, before you try to school them.

Im afraid youre mistaken if you think theres a hard and fast definition of what feminism is or that any 1 group of people are the authority on the subject. I think someones a bit to easily lead.

Some of us accept that we have to make sacrifices to do certain things.
We all conform to expectations of society, family and outside influences, that is the very thing that makes a society, of people that behave in a manner that is expected.

To think you are the exception that you should be special in some way and not have to try to follow societal norms so that everyone can live peacefully together is typical, and one of the causes of why society is so divided at present. If you feel the need to put money aside to get out of a relationship then you really haven't grasped the whole idea of marriage. How can you expect your partner to be all in on a relationship if you're not?

If you're not paid enough to afford the childcare you need in order to go to work, then its not a choice, is it? That's the point I was making. I think you've misunderstood me.

Nothing whatsoever to do with being a fucking surrended wife.

I've just mentiomed this link on another chat referring to the wage gap. Ive just watched it again there and its interesting and gives all the reasons.

I just love seeing the annoying Kate Smurthwaite get wound up. 😂 I saw a funny debate between her and Milo Yiannopoulos, who I usually also find annoying. She had made a sarcastic comment about him speaking for women, so he responded a few minutes later with a sarcy 'shhh, love, we're discussing men's issues now' and she lost her shit, seemingly totally oblivious to the intended irony.

[quote Shmurf]An interesting discussion on it which I watched ages ago after seeing it mentioned on here.

To be honest I don’t pretend to understand all the myriad reasons/causes/systemic biases that have led to the status quo. It is enough that so many people are dissatisfied with it that we should at least discuss it to look to make it more equitable.

I’m not exactly a feminist, but I can only imagine how frustrating it is that we seem perpetually stuck in the even agreeing if there even is a problem, phase of the debate. It is frustrating as buggery to me, and I’m not even in the demographic that is compromised by all this.

I see much the same in the discussion around rape/sexual assault, as if we all just collectively shrug our shoulders and conclude “men are gonna rape what can you do huh?” with an added side order of placing way too much scrutiny on women as if they are somehow responsible for it.

That said I’d be open to interpretations of things like the gender pay gap that aren’t consciously sexist. Like for example people will tend to hire/promote people who remind them of themselves. So it’s possible to trully not believe women or ethnic minorities are inferior in any way, but your unconscious biases may lead you to advance those people who reflect your in-group. Say for example you are a straight white man who pretty much only mixes with other straight white men, well there is your bias right there. I truly believe if your in group is diverse your unconscious biases will lean toward reflecting that.

For many men/women they often only mix when it comes to family, sex or children. Unfortunately we run up against this very toxic idea that romantic/sexual interactions are the summit of male/female relations. I do not believe it has to be so.

And fucking useless.

Liberal feminism is old-fashioned. In my opinion.

Old fashioned feminism like Boudicca?

50,000 women a year lose their job after their employer finds out they are pregnant. How many is the magic number before we are allowed to say its a systemic bias?

''Data analysed by the House of Commons library found that 14 per cent of the 340,000 women who take maternity leave each year find their jobs under threat when they try to return, with some told that they cannot continue in their role part-time.''
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10267223/Up-to-50000-women-a-year-cant-return-to-jobs-after-maternity-leave-study-finds.html

Yep. Going back to the earlier part of the discussion, if I was making tons of money I'd be quite happy to have a male partner who stayed home, especially if we had kids. It's the attachment to gender roles that fucks everything up, more obviously for women but it would be better for some men if we did away with them too.

BigGee - alongside that though, the same choices and freedom to choose should apply equally to men.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities, equal freedoms and allowed choices.

RE Old fashioned feminism, maybe we're meant to party like it's 1799?

The whole point is - why are women predominantly in low paying roles and men in high paying roles in companies?

And then there's the observed phenomenon that the monetary value given to a job mysteriously gets downgraded if that sector employs more women, and upgraded if it starts to employ more men.

I'm actually all for women to have the choice to be an "in the home feminist" if they want to be one. If they want to hand control of their lives over to someone else, then far be it for me to stop them. As long, as long, and I repeat AS LONG, as it IS A CHOICE and not something forced on them by expectations, society, family, peer pressure, or another outside influence. If it's her choice, then I'm all for it. I do think a smart woman would retain financial independence and maintain a social life outwith her marriage and home, but if the surrendered wife is your kinda thing, go for it.

I was just wondering how far back you have to go to find a “woman’s place is in the home feminist”.... even our dear old queen drove an ambulance and used a nanny.

It is the high number of women employed within the company as cabin crew, and the relatively small number of women employed as pilots that leads to an overall gender pay gap.

That article isn't very reflective. The whole point is - why are women predominantly in low paying roles and men in high paying roles in companies? That's what causes most of the gap.

Noone thinks companies are routinely flouting the equal pay act (although that does happen). Instead men are getting the higher paying jobs.
Now either a) men are intrinsically more capable than women or b) there are barriers to women getting those jobs. Most feminists think B. The gender pay gap implies those barriers still exist