Autism in women and gender stereotypes

@DickKerrLadies The 'good' thing about adhd is that there are meds and they help. Will they make you much more organised etc? No not really. But they help a lot.

Untidy, disorganised, like straightforward communication without games and with an element of missing social cues.

Interesting. This could be written about me and my DD.

Thank you all for your replies.

I will keep an eye on the girls but it's not something I'd pursue for the sake of it.

This has been a really interesting thread.

A diagnosis isn't going to change anything, but once you understand what causes difficulties, it's easier to build in strategies, and you're also more understanding and easier on yourself, too.

It's no surprise to me at all that autism and gender dysphoria in the teen years are often linked. I think sometimes that bright autistic kids are less distracted by bullshit, as they don't have a hive mind as most do at that age - and adolescence for girls is hideous. Emotionally, in terms of horribly dramatic and complex and intense peer interaction; physically with so many changes and transitions and actual pain and mess, harder for people with sensory processing problems; and because you start having to cope with unwanted sexual attention. Add in a greater probability of being gay (higher incidence in the ASD population) and gender non-conforming, and there you are.

Most of the adult autistic women I know say that they'd have transitioned, and how grateful they are that it wasn't a thing when they were adolescents.

I do think watchful waiting should be the approach until at least early 20s, to allow people to develop and grow and be who they really are before anything irreversible is done.

ShinyFootball if you or your daughters are doing fine and coping well with life, not having meltdowns or shutdowns, or feeling overwhelmed with anxiety, depression etc then you probably don't need to pursue a diagnosis. If you're happy as you are, there's no real need to go down the route of a formal diagnosis.

If you find your daughters are starting to struggle at school or expressing frustration or confusion about why they can't make / keep friends and you get the sense they are searching for answers and feeling like a failure for not being like others, then it's a good idea to maybe explore further. Similarly if you are grappling for issues and looking for answers, then it might be worth asking for an assessment. It sounds like you're content and happy with yourself.

There's no real support for adults with ASD anyway, so a diagnosis won't 'solve' anything but it might help with better understanding of oneself and finding more positive ways of dealing with issues.
I think children with ASD might have better support, but I don't know much about this area.

For me, I felt like a failure throughout my life and this affected my relationships, my mental health. I just really needed to know, and I find the diagnosis has had a positive impact on my life as I now try to work within my limitations and not push myself, although I still forget at times and then have a shutdown.

It's the same with ADHD. Untidy, disorganised, like straightforward communication without games and with an element of missing social cues. Plus various other things depending on adhd type. All things that do not fit in with being a nice quiet girl playing skipping at lunch time. I can imagine a young girl would rather be a boy than live the kind of constrained lives girls do. Or at least they think they would.

Oh also obsessional behaviour.

And I've had more or less the same lunch every day for 30 years.

Do I need to look at this for my girls a bit more, or does this sound normal to you? It's normal to me!

Thinking about my girls as well here.

They have many of my traits.

Oh also I used to do counting a lot, paving stones, they have to be even

I have difficulty with female friendships in the, dunno. I'm good at making friends but poor at the emotional stuff. I have a lot of male friends and always have.

Science degree.

I'm in my late 40s. A lot of people say my brother is maybe autistic etc.

Emotion stuff I'm bad at.

Interesting.

I'm just me though. Been a feminist since before I knew the word as I didn't appreciate the way my personality was supposed to be determined by my sex.

Hmmmmm.
Interesting.

'NonnyMouse that’s such a good point. I do think that a lot of my aversion to ‘girly’ things is due to sensory difficulties. I remember crying when my mum put me in a party dress that had a net petticoat. It was like being scratched with sandpaper. There are a lot of clothes that I can’t wear. I have a lot of difficulty with make up too.'

Girls/ women's clothes are uncomfy though.

Scratchy, nasty, clingy, sweaty etc. Tights! Jesus. Awful.

It's uncomfortable and restrictive being female. It's normal to fight against it.

Not sure where I'm going here.

But so far I agree with the people who have autism. But I don't have that AFAIK.

not sure if these posts are helpful, sorry! Have had cider.

Not RTFT sorry.

I know that autism is under diagnosed in girls.

But I don't have autism and relate to the blurb in the OP.

I'll read the rest now.

@ keepingbees The Lorna Wing/Centre of the national autism society specialise in diagnosing girls and women, with more subtle assessments that pick up on the female presentation. I think you can be referred to one of their two units down South from across the UK so it'd be worth taking a look at their website.

It’s very alt, but very accepting of quirky kids and just stick to training

[quote Gwynfluff]@DCIRozHuntley

Probably some of the things you are describing could fit with a diagnosis of ASC. Coming to this years later and looking back at one of own children who did manage primary.

What was protective was encouraging interests. Does your DD have any special interests (girls with ASC often doubt have the traditional tech/machinery obsessions). Minority sports like orienteering, climbing, roller derby are often good places to find other quirky kids. She might want to do cubs or scouts (though might be disappointed that boys fall out due to emotional/psychological entanglements as well). If she really dislikes being in groups - encouraging her other interests as much as you can.[/quote]
Roller derby is awfully pro-trans though. I'd worry about that.

It's interesting to me that some people think of things like glitter or unicorns being part of being "girly". Growing up in the 70s/early 80s, I was always a tomboy, but I had friends who were considered girly. There was still no glitter or unicorns, they might have been more interested in dolls, or dressing up. When we played games they wanted to play the girl, not a boy. But basically they wore the same clothes as the rest of us 90% of the time, and played Star Wars or GI Joe or climbed trees and made forts and rode bikes around. Everyone wore hand me downs a lot of the time, often from brothers, and everyone, even the tomboys, wore dresses and tights to picture day and the Christmas concert.

My daughter was diagnosed at 10. I wanted the diagnosis before senior school.
School is exhausting for her, what with sensory overload and social issues. She is very social and desires a best friend but is often happiest playing tag with the boys. She says the girls just want to walk around talking whereas she needs that physical release.
She knows she can't be a boy and has no desire to be. I praise her for challenging gender stereotypes. She had just had a groovy short haircut, shaved on one side and the back. I'm dreading someone call her a boy in September so I am trying to think of a good comeback. The best one is that her old teacher has very much the same hairstyle and she is a woman. My daughter's haircare has been a source of sensory overload for most of her life so this new haircut is liberating for her. She even said she felt more confident and we got out a for a bike ride.
There are so many strategies that can be put in place for autistic kids, the diagnosis is really important for that. And for her it helps her be stronger in her identity and hopefully less prone to all the trans ideology out there. It only takes one peer to say you must be trans because you look like a boy and that would be enough to create a super focus for an autistic girl.
Puberty and autism can be even more stressful and I'm preparing for this now. I'm on a great parenting Facebook group for autistic girls which is a fab source of strategies that you don't find in books yet. There is a mixture of GC and trans supporting parents and this issue is being debated more.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong
No it was my mistake sorry, I don't know why I thought girl when you clearly said boy!

I'm not sure what other things we can access or how we go about seeking occupational therapy. Once they pass the ADOS everyone seems to wash their hands of you.
The paediatrician told us to self refer to a local autism support place that gives you a worker, but they've been involved before and couldn't really offer us any advice beyond what we were already doing.
We've also had sleep solutions involvement and they couldn't suggest anything either.

@Gwynfluff yes, she has been a Beaver and is now a Cub and does have a couple of sporty hobbies too. She was meant to start a Lego club too but that's all on hold with lockdown. That was my feeling also - don't put all her eggs in one school-shaped basket. Thanks for your post

@DCIRozHuntley

Probably some of the things you are describing could fit with a diagnosis of ASC. Coming to this years later and looking back at one of own children who did manage primary.

What was protective was encouraging interests. Does your DD have any special interests (girls with ASC often doubt have the traditional tech/machinery obsessions). Minority sports like orienteering, climbing, roller derby are often good places to find other quirky kids. She might want to do cubs or scouts (though might be disappointed that boys fall out due to emotional/psychological entanglements as well). If she really dislikes being in groups - encouraging her other interests as much as you can.

Also problems with some make up. Can't stand the feel of lipstick. So much of pps is relateable.

[quote keepingbees]@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong thanks, she's only 7 and the paediatrician said pretty much what you have. To be fair they said they should really discharge her but have kept her on with a view to re doing the ADOS in a couple of years when she's a better chance of failing it.
Which seems a crazy system. We're not looking to label her but she needs help, and we as parents need help. She doesn't sleep and never has, has huge sensory issues, constant meltdowns and we're struggling to cope. She also needs support at school which she's missing out on. They say early intervention is key but then you can't get it.
I would hope she can access some help before the teen years otherwise I really think there will be big problems.
Her brother was diagnosed aged 8 and has nowhere near the problems she has. He's higher functioning but never masked it.
It's a poor system that doesn't recognise this.
I hope your daughter is doing ok and you're getting some support now. [/quote]
Sorry, I must’ve been unnecessarily confusing - my ASD ‘baby’ is a boy, but a rare teenage diagnosis. He was a very good masker until he was about 11, when it all got too much and the wheels came off. He’s 20 now and things are much better than they were.

Is it possible to go any side steps to access support? My son was diagnosed with dyspraxia first, then ADHD, then ASD later on. Fairly typical fo have a cluster of two or more diagnosis.

Re: sensory issues, the best help we ever had was via a course for parents run by occupational therapists - it helped so much, learning to identify and manage the environment in a way that soothed his sensory perceptions, rather than exacerbate them (I even redecorated his room, swapping out colours that didn’t work for his brain).

Harder to do that stuff out of the home, of course, but it did give me a lot of insight re: how to pick my battles, with both my son and the school.

It’s a shitty system, and as with many systems, particularly shit for girls ☹️

[quote princesshollysmagicalwand]@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong We did the parents post diagnosis course at the private clinic where we had DD assessed (she has since also been diagnosed on the NHS). She's 4. We were the only parents of a girl. Interesting that when they were so much older, you had all girls.

We're also now doing the NHS post diagnosis course for parents of children under five. Out of six sets of parents how many are parents of girls? You guessed it. Just us. [/quote]
You are our opposites!

My son is 20 now and it definitely feels like the work everyone put in paid off.

The best thing we ever got was a similar course for parents but run by the occupational therapists. It’s was very helpful.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong thanks, she's only 7 and the paediatrician said pretty much what you have. To be fair they said they should really discharge her but have kept her on with a view to re doing the ADOS in a couple of years when she's a better chance of failing it.
Which seems a crazy system. We're not looking to label her but she needs help, and we as parents need help. She doesn't sleep and never has, has huge sensory issues, constant meltdowns and we're struggling to cope. She also needs support at school which she's missing out on. They say early intervention is key but then you can't get it.
I would hope she can access some help before the teen years otherwise I really think there will be big problems.
Her brother was diagnosed aged 8 and has nowhere near the problems she has. He's higher functioning but never masked it.
It's a poor system that doesn't recognise this.
I hope your daughter is doing ok and you're getting some support now.

Dd is autistic, she struggled in her teen years and the above does reflect what I observed except she knew her gender, that wasn't at stake (she also knew she's bisexual but isn't that bothered about relationships unless it's right, her relationships have been with men but the quirky less masculine type). I would never generalise - if gender dysphoria is something you cannot control like sexuality then society cannot change the way you feel.