Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

Then why do transwomen need to be in the women's? Why do women not get to think about who is next to them, but transwomen do?

let men into women's toilets
This is already happening with the trend for unisex facilities.

After an unpromising beginning, this thread has turned out to be quite informative for those new to this issue and forum. Thanks all to those who took the time to write so clearly about many aspects and nuances of their concerns and the overall political landscape. It took over an hour to read through and although I skimmed a few posts, I also read a few posts a couple of times over, particularly @Ramblingwords comprehensive post on page 11 of this thread which is just gold. I wished I could snip quote or easily link to the post, but perhaps I've missed a button/function on this board.

Anyway, I came here originally to get a sense of the shape of the larger debate, followed by belatedly tuning into much of what's been happening on Twitter. I don't engage a great deal on Twitter, especially on trans matters. For me, it can often feel a corrosive, unilluminating timesink, unless discussing professional topics and its been helpful in that regard. For those of us who fully medically and surgically transitioned some years ago, and are just leading fairly conventional lives, it's been helpful to obtain a nuanced picture by coming here and finding a few substantive threads to read.

It's true. I don't have that childhood formation or experience of structural oppression as a young girl, but like other women, I've faced down unwelcome behaviour, been patronised, fought like hell for comparative pay, undermined at work, told to smile, told once to wear a sari (!), had my breasts stared at, sworn at for being a complete bitch... and assaulted at night, in the street, by some pissed bloke in his 30s, just a couple of hundred yards from the flat. I've been asked at least a dozen times why I don't have kids, to which the only honest reply is that I was unable to have them, which usually ends the conversation. I stopped wearing makeup in my 40s unless for certain meetings or occasions, and when not at work, muck around – like many of us – in trackies, jeans and t-shirts. These are shared overlapping experiences... which is ultimately, is all we have as humanity.

Some of the intrusive and disturbing behaviour that others here have described here across a range of places, platforms, spaces and activities sounds absolutely horrific... and I can only apologise for those who have hurt people in the past. In some people's eyes, I may be lumped in under some sprawling trans umbrella term, but these are not people I personally communicate or associate with. My friends are mostly (biological) women, and some gay couples scattered across London and the world. I'm close to my sisters who live abroad... but the idea which I've read elsewhere on this forum, that as a transwoman, I represent some kind of overarching apocalyptic threat to gay men and lesbian women and their political struggles, is going to take a while to absorb and reflect on – especially to understand how this particular hypothesis is formulated. Slippery slope arguments aren't always persuasive.

There are a couple of comments buried deep in this thread I can't currently find and may come back to in another post. Someone asked why we can't monitor and influence our own 'community', someone touched on cancer and there was another long well-intentioned post buried in there somewhere which could do with a revisit.

Thanks again.

Maybe they don't in swish offices, but they do elsewhere, especially if it's not a high-traffic area

I can tell you it makes no difference how fancy or crappy or high/low traffic area. They leave the doors open and the loos a complete pissy shitty mess.
I mean when the womens loo is in a state then it's bad, but usually a reason for it (sudden period/miscarriage/morning sickness)

From a cleaner of high and low end bogs.

Hi OP.
What an interesting thread to read. I was of the same position as you about a year ago. Then I listened to all the points that have been made on this thread.

It makes me sad the entrenched misogeny in our culture.

Stick around and keep learning though.

I just read the article about what women vs what men do to protect themselves, that a PP posted here and it has made me think. (Also, the posts where PPs describe/envy their partners‘ carelessness).

Clearly, this fear takes away one‘s freedom in a way. At the same time, I think males, particularly underage boys, underestimate the risks they face. I have to say, I do raise my son to be rather aware of such risks (public toilet...). Is that wrong? He is more fearful than his peers. Maybe I‘m taking something away from him there. Idk.

Women and girls are certainly more at risk than males, but I sometimes feel that the difference in perception (and consequently the attitude we go through life) goes way beyond the actual difference in numbers.

(Sorry for the tangent, and yes, I want sex segregated toilets, for the obvious reasons stated on this thread).

Maybe they don't in swish offices, but they do elsewhere, especially if it's not a high-traffic area.

Has anyone yet pointed out to @Kelcat9494 that one of the photos posted as a "gotcha" is Buck Angel, who shares quite a few of the opinions commonly posted in this here FWR.

There's also plenty that we disagree on (I'm seriously not a big fan of porn, for example, which has been Buck's living) but Buck, if you ever read this, I'd totally sit down for a pint with you. I think we'd have a lovely time.

And in the meantime, @Kelcat9494 might like to visit Buck's twitter account, and be aghast at the terrible, terrible transphobia that Buck (a trans pioneer) expresses by stating that sex differences are a real thing, and that kids shouldn't be fast-tracked to transing.

Milotic- no probs, I don’t normally poke my nose in but that got my goat.

You can clearly handle yourself

Thank you @Deliriumoftheendless but don't worry about me dear. I just like using the bluntest language possible.

People are free to tell me my opinion is transphobic.

But I'll show them up for defending rapists and paedophiles.

It's transphobic to call those people trans in my opinion. Normal trans people don't want to be associated with the fetishists and end up getting assaulted themselves.

People should be thankful I'm referring to my MTF ex as trans tbh because he isn't trans either he told me he hates other trans. Gays are drama. Lesbians are rad fem man haters. And bisexual people like me are greedy cum dumpsters.

Yeah. @GreytExpectations can carry on thinking they know what phobic abuse is. Im the one who lived with transphobia and bi phobia (because btw yes it's still transphobic abuse even if the person doesn't identify as trans).

Milotic

I can’t tell you what to do but I’d ignore those trying to get a rise out of you. Most hear are sympathetic to you I reckon.

BigGee, I'm struggling to articulate what I mean well, but it's something like:

If it's triggering to be reminded that people who have periods are called women because it is something they won't have... surely it will be equally triggering to have hospital staff referring to their prostate, or testicles etc? To have a hospital reaffirming they have a male body?

Apologies if that doesn't make sense!

@GreytExpectations and I'll refer to my rapists as whatever the fuck I want.

My actual trans friends do aswell so go and virtue signal and white knight somewhere else.

HPW freak the living shit out of my trans friends.

Referring to a trans person as "hairy panty wearers" is transphobic and should be removed.

Why? That's what they refer to themselves as
They are not trans. They are men who like wearing women's underwear whilst being male.

What I want to know is, if a transwoman got sick with a Male cancer what would they do? If it is so hideously transphobic and triggering for them to recognise that woman get periods, what on earth would being told they have prostate, testicular or penile (obviously pre-transition in the last two examples) cancer do to them?!?

I don't hate trans people.

I do have a lot of concerns about the denial of biological reality. Fact is if you have an XY chromosomes you are biologically and genetically male, and if you have XX chromosomes you are biologically and genetically female. No amount of surgery or artificial hormones changes that.

I don't believe you can be 'born in the wrong body' and have concerns that this narrative may be harming people. On what basis of not feeling you are the right gender is this decision made? Why can a man not have a lot of feminine traits and still be a man? Why can't people just be encouraged to accept who they are and accept that they don't have to fit into typical gender narratives, and that doesn't mean that they are in the 'wrong body'.

I have real concerns about this agenda being pushed onto vulnerable and confused teenagers who may end up making decisions that will harm them for the rest of their life, both on a physical and emotional level.

I have concerns that women only areas like sport are becoming increasingly unfair playing fields as in terms of strength, running speeds etc transwomen are biologically always going to have the edge in these regards being genetically male, so biological females are starting to struggle to win in female sports.

I have concerns that if a biological female feels uncomfortable about sharing a space with a transwoman, whether because of history of abuse, domestic violence, or sheer discomfort; they are continuously being told that their discomfort is secondary to making the transwoman feel comfortable and that they continuously become the second class citizen in this regard.

Mostly I am concerned that the trans community are shouting 'transphobic' and 'trans hatred' every time someone tries to raise these sorts of concerns, no matter how politely, which serves only to stop people being able to have an actual discussion about these concerns in a meaningful and productive way. Many people I know share my concerns but have become increasingly afraid to raise any concerns publicly because their words so often get twisted or painted as trans-hatred, and they genuinely fear for their jobs etc to say anything which isn't 100% pro-trans.

Milotic
The ironic thing about those pictures is theyd be hugely triggering for the average trans person as they will never ever pass that well.

Sorry but it's a fact. And they know it.

My ex used to spend hours looking at the pictures the hairy panty wearers post. All of 20year old natal females.

That's unhealthy for a 40 year old woman to be aspiring to never mind someone male.

Referring to a trans person as "hairy panty wearers" is transphobic and should be removed.

It’s actually very transphobic to assume that Milotic was talking about trans people and not just male bodied people with a fetish. Please stop suggesting that all trans people behave in such a manner.

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