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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

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Gurufloof · 30/07/2020 20:50

Dreeple

I have no hatred for “trans people

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them

Same, much as they may think they're special, they ain't really.
And dekalog also as lovely as I'm sure they are irl, not special at all. It's the same shite different packaging.
Absolutely everything they posted as some kind of gotcha is not even a percent of what most women go through, from such a young age too.

Dekalog · 30/07/2020 20:26

It’s not you as an individual that threatens the political struggles of homosexual people, it’s the ideology that claims to be for you (and transgender people in general) which seeks to remove the ‘sex’ part of homosexuality and instead recasts homosexuality as ‘same gender attraction’.

As any good second-waver will tell you, the personal is the political.

The use of the word 'ideology' is ideological in itself. There wasn't any 'gender ideology' involved in my conscious realisation at seven and my development at the age of 9-12 because I wasn't on YouTube being 'indoctrinated' from 1969-1978, nor was I under any form of treatment. Please don't throw highly-disputable and glib pre-packaged statements around, nor do you speak for any gay men and women I know.

We don't even know what consciousness or a gestalt identity actually is. And I haven't read anything on any side that would qualify as a theory, but I'm seeing a lot of highly-contested frameworks and hypotheses, so when discouraged, I'm left wondering whether the underlying driving 'theories' in this larger ongoing struggle are actually the Horseshoe Theory and the Overton Window.

My preferred approach here, specifically in this space and overall broader discussion, is to read a few key threads, also get a sense check of the vibe, tone and energies, do some self-directed reading elsewhere and let things roll over for a while before I even consider posting. Recognising besieged and maximally staked-out positions and feelings on all sides, I'm not here to change anyone's mind or trade hit-and-run barbs or quips.

Putting the proposed legislative and policy discussion to one side for a moment, many of the gender critical arguments I've seen so far have a far longer history than the last 10-15 years, so I find it personally helpful to revisit and get a grounding in some of the foundational precepts as expressed at the time, and how they've evolved. Sometimes, the original is better than the sequel.

Thanks for provided video clips, though. Video is great for certain types of content, but I prefer to digest longer-form pieces where arguments are clearly laid out. As well as relating personal experiences and reading those of others, I'm more interested in deeper dives into medical, legal, political and academic perspectives. What a public figure – celeb, columnist, author or script-writer – might express is always a far more subjective, editorially-minded view.

So instead, yesterday afternoon, I read an interview with the LGB Alliance founders on Quillette, which at least, was relatively unfiltered. Some of their points, in my opinion, were partially persuasive, but in places didn't correspond to mine or other's experience. In the long run, analysis and examination of policy is critical to all sides. But that's fine, no-one has a monopoly on the truth.

I then sunk into a couple of pieces on this broader topic featuring second wave figures incl. Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin (no iron-clad consensus there), as well as evolving strands in the third wave. Quickly picked up that Reddit closed their gender critical forum, but also had time to dip into two other relevant pieces, one from Marcus Evans at Tavistock describing his resignation, and another legal piece from gender critical perspective in policy in Canada to tighten up on loopholes, which was the clearest sign of achieving a small degree of and moving things forward.

My experience of GID services has been primarily at Charing Cross where some elements of the process raised an eyebrow, which I'm happy to expand on at some later point, if it's interesting or helpful for anyone. All I'll add is that my long-standing approach to not engage with the broader trans 'community' and carve out my own path, adhering to accepted best practice, has worked well for me. Incidentally, I've removed my name from the national cervical screening programme, which wasn't as straightforward as anticipated, but given my age, still need to attend breast screening. JoBloggs7765974 on Twitter might imagine they need a pap smear, but they're a deluded nuisance, to put it charitably.

Although I'm not convinced about self-id and clearly see flaws, quite frankly, at the outer edges of gender critical positions, some of these views represent a considerable threat to those of us where key ID documentation (e.g. passports) is vital to travel, live and work. Indulging in online performative cruelty – shoehorning loosely-considered implications into a theoretical feminist framework – and thereby bolstering in-group credentials, isn't remotely persuasive if you'd like your views to gain wider traction.

I'm going to move onto other commitments for a while. My MacBook Pro has just decided to pop its battery, damaging the case and needs to go in for a repair on Tues, so I'm going to be offline, finishing projects and backing stuff up. Thanks again to those who wrote some quality posts in this thread –its food for thought. But for all of us, no matter what's in your knickers or between your legs, it's been a challenging time since March. I've had three friends of friends die since then.

On a closing note, the random and amateurish armchair psychological diagnoses and assessments about individuals on YouTube – while undoubtedly cathartic to express – are an embarrassment and an affront to any notion of what genuine social activism is.

Have a good weekend everyone. Stay cool, stay safe.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 12:53

@Jeeeez

I've been thru Jamie's JKRowling video with a fine tooth comb and it's jam packed with misrepresentations of the research they've put up, amongst many other things...arghhh!

Hopefully when we come out the other side of this we can have more more than International Women's Day. Pride get a month ffs....

Month? Last year we had flags along Tottenham court from from June until the start of the new uni term (so what, September??).

IWD has one day and stonewall recommend that day to to promote them to get stonewall points (or something).

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/07/2020 12:03

The videos of Jamie with Jamie’s big brother are particularly revealing - there seems to be some kind of deep seated wish to become the brother (perhaps motivated by self loathing, internalised lesbophobia, sibling rivalry, parental favouritism etc) which combined with falling in love (at a very young age by contemporary standards) with a young woman whose parents held deeply culturally conservative/religious view re: homosexuality and Jamie’s own super liberal parents who seem to have not questioned the trans narrative much at all (perhaps due to devaluing girls/women, hence the brother-envy) adds up to unhealthy state of deep denial and a constant need to validate one’s own choices - hence all the disingenuous straw man arguments in the videos.

My father was a compulsive liar who completely lost touch with what was real and what was one of his self-invented ‘histories’ - I suspect the root cause was childhood neglect resulting in a disordered personality (no one actually bothered to even register his birth, he eventually did it himself as an adult).
Women on here often say that they recognised the harmfulness of trans activism because it was so similar to their experiences of abusive relationships, just on a group scale rather than a personal one.
I have a similar sense of recognition re: people in deep denial - both Jamie and Suzie Green give me the SHIVERS - they are people who have told themselves so many untruths that they can no longer do anything but tell more because otherwise the whole house of cards will fall on top of them. The unconscious urge for self protection is so strong that they actually believe the things they say.

A massive reality crash is coming for both of them eventually.

I can imagine both ending up in lawsuits, they are massive contributors to the rise in ROGD, in the U.K. and beyond.

FloralBunting · 30/07/2020 11:40

Jamie is, imo, quite a dangerously influential person. The videos are breezy and friendly, they do cod-science thing of allude to a study with a long link flashed on screen, Jamie is all smiles and presents everything in the garden as rosy and appealing.

Scratch the surface even the tiniest bit and you realize that drastic surgeries are causing Jamie problems, Jamie has a (deliberately cultivated, imo) shallow understanding of the views Jamie misrepresents, and like I said before, the insecurity keeps leaping off the screen each video. Yes, Jamie is one of the better 'passing' FTMs, because Jamie was always tall, but I think it's fairly obvious that even Jamie is dimly aware that it's all a but smoke and mirrors, and the scoffing at "Me? A lesbian?!" is more painful each time they do it. I still feel for them a bit, but as always, my sympathy is limited when you are an influential evangelist for the cause.

highame · 30/07/2020 11:25

This ought to be on a new topic but it's nice to stamp our womanly feet all over our topics

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/07/2020 11:25

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

As my Nan would’ve said ‘Shy Kids Get No Sweets’.

highame · 30/07/2020 11:24

@Jeeeez I agree. I think we've been poor at International Women's day.

Jeeeez · 30/07/2020 11:18

I've been thru Jamie's JKRowling video with a fine tooth comb and it's jam packed with misrepresentations of the research they've put up, amongst many other things...arghhh!

Hopefully when we come out the other side of this we can have more more than International Women's Day. Pride get a month ffs....

highame · 30/07/2020 10:45

@Howzaboutye

Look up Emma Nicolson on twitter. She is recruiting to get this steam roller stopped. We have to do this for us and our daughters
Already signed up and doing my bit. Already had a reply from Assistant Director in charge of Education and Inclusion. Just waiting for more input before response. Also in communication with County Councillors etc. Local Councillors next. Get going, it's a heavy load but it's beginning to shift
Howzaboutye · 30/07/2020 10:35

Look up Emma Nicolson on twitter. She is recruiting to get this steam roller stopped.
We have to do this for us and our daughters

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 10:35

Squeaky wheel gets the oil. I remember reading some research where they studied the children who survived during famines as it was the ones who yelled blue bloody murder, possibly because those who didn’t were either not as desperately ill or just too weak and beyond saving.

Be the squeaky wheel.

FloralBunting · 30/07/2020 10:00

That video from Jamie has got to be the most jam-packed with deliberate misunderstandings and lies than they've ever managed before.

I mean, sure, you can say, over and over, that LGB rights are not affected by T demands, but if you also say that same sex attraction is an irrelevance and it's all about 'same gender' attraction and that LGB people should be shamed for thinking sex is relevant to sexuality, not gender, then you've contradicted yourself within the space of about a minute...

If I had nothing else to do, I think I'd like to transcribe Jamie's video and go through it point by point because I think it's a masterclass in lies, misrepresentation, deliberate obfuscation and a whole heap of of insecurity (Yeah, Jamie, keep asking if anyone can look at you and see anything other than a self-loathing lesbian on T. I'm sure the more incredulous the tone you put into the question, the more it won't be trueHmm)

nepeta · 30/07/2020 09:58

[quote highame]@SerenityNowwwww

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

We have been way way too passive for far too long. It really is time to get our arses into gear. I've had enough.

I used to be reasonable until this shit show and now I don't just want tiny little bits of compromise - NO BLOODY THANKS, I want a massive roll back.

Protections and rights yes but not ever at my expense[/quote]
That gave me nice cold shivers down my spine.

highame · 30/07/2020 09:36

@SerenityNowwwww

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

We have been way way too passive for far too long. It really is time to get our arses into gear. I've had enough.

I used to be reasonable until this shit show and now I don't just want tiny little bits of compromise - NO BLOODY THANKS, I want a massive roll back.

Protections and rights yes but not ever at my expense

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 08:33

Im trying time understand the amount of hate women get, well most places - and our lack of flags, parades, pinkified logos, advertised allies, posters, badges, demos and lobby groups (in schools, business, politics and National Rail Scotland...) 🤔

Dreeple · 29/07/2020 23:36

I have no hatred for “trans people.”

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them.

Manderleyagain · 29/07/2020 23:28

Undergroundoverit thanks! I don't use the app but will have a fiddle.

MsSafina · 29/07/2020 23:21

I am wondering how long it will be before reference to breast or ovarian cancer are removed as "offensive" and whether women- sorry, sorry, sorry - womxn, will be able to get any treatment for female related problems.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 29/07/2020 23:19

but the idea which I've read elsewhere on this forum, that as a transwoman, I represent some kind of overarching apocalyptic threat to gay men and lesbian women and their political struggles

It’s not you as an individual that threatens the political struggles of homosexual people, it’s the ideology that claims to be for you (and transgender people in general) which seeks to remove the ‘sex’ part of homosexuality and instead recasts homosexuality as ‘same gender attraction’.

I’m sure you can see how insulting that is to people who have only recently gotten the right to marry their same sex partners (and how damaging it is to those people in other countries who are yet to achieve this right).

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjXIaVgrC0

m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xJJiPjHVSg

undergroundoverit · 29/07/2020 20:53

@Manderleyagain

Dekalog Thanks really interesting post. As far as I know the way to quote previous posts is just to copy and paste.

Thanks OP for making this thread. I hope you found it positive in the end.

There's a quote function now, for everyone (not just Premium subscribers) - if you're on the app, just swipe the post to the left and hit the Quote button.
Manderleyagain · 29/07/2020 20:34

Dekalog Thanks really interesting post. As far as I know the way to quote previous posts is just to copy and paste.

Thanks OP for making this thread. I hope you found it positive in the end.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2020 20:23

Regarding unisex toilets, Covid rules are challenging for schools around toilets.

To try to meet them a lot of primary schools are making the loos unisex, unaware of the laws around single sex toilets from age 8. Where there's a room with several cubicles in.

I saw a long thread in a senior leaders fb group, where a good many had no idea and had made loos unisex.

Luckily there were a few who knew the law inside out 🤔probably hang out here a lot!

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2020 20:18

Hello Dekalog

What a considered and eloquent post. It's a good thread and I'm glad it was helpful.

Please remember that most of the women here object to the ideology, rather than the individual, especially how it affects children and girls, and especially medically, and how it's changing laws which were always there to safeguard women. Re defining women means a re definition of woman in law and we don't consent to that.

The 'break it down for me thread,' linked a couple of times here, is also good.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/07/2020 20:15

I wish you were right; but I have seen several what-had-been-women's lavatory facilities being renamed as "unisex" lavatory facilities, which seems to me to be letting men into women's toilets, really quite obviously and literally; strangely, men's lavatories in the same buildings generally seem to remain men's lavatories and to be so labelled. The only exception to this I have so far seen was in a hotel in Harrogate, where signs had been put in place by a convention asserting that all the lavatories were for anyone to use. (These signs were removed by the staff after the convention was over and the ladies reverted to being the ladies, the gents the gents.)

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