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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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bishopgiggles · 31/07/2020 14:26

Well, on face value I quite welcome some of dekalog's posts. Everyone has different posting styles, usually shaped by whatever other forums you're used to. Happy to have someone that can argue in good faith, if indeed they can. Just like i appreciated the trans partner AMA recently. Interestingly that also said that the trans man in question thought a lot of TRA claims and rhetoric were nonsense and had nothing in common with their actual experience, but decided to keep out of the arguments.

DialSquare · 31/07/2020 14:24

@SugarPlumFairyCakes

Winniefred - thank you for that moving post from another women who has gone through this. I really think anyone who reads that post and doesn't respond with emphaty and horror at the loss of unborn children and a women's experience, is a person who should never be in Women's facilities in the first place. Clearly no compassion or understanding of lived experience at all.
I was just about to post pretty much the same thing.

Winniefred. Your posts are brilliant. Clear and concise and sums up exactly how I feel.

GurlwiththeCurl · 31/07/2020 14:19

@PinkyU that’s all that you could reply to @Winniefred ‘s heartfelt post? That dismissive comment?

Shame on you. Just shame.

SugarPlumFairyCakes · 31/07/2020 14:13

Winniefred - thank you for that moving post from another women who has gone through this.
I really think anyone who reads that post and doesn't respond with emphaty and horror at the loss of unborn children and a women's experience, is a person who should never be in Women's facilities in the first place. Clearly no compassion or understanding of lived experience at all.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 31/07/2020 13:58

Winniefred, thank you. Flowers

CatandtheFiddle · 31/07/2020 13:55

As any good second-waver will tell you, the personal is the political

As an actual second wave feminist and a woman (born a girl, raised in patriarchy), I find it interesting the way that trans ideology misunderstands that slogan. Mostly because they do not have the experience of being born & raised female in patriarchy ...

BaronEssoStation · 31/07/2020 13:48

Utter stupidity and hyperbole.

Nice of you to sum up your own post.

Lamahaha · 31/07/2020 13:45

Powerful post, Winniefred.

I have a little experience of my own, not nearly as dramatic, but for me highly embarrassing at the time. I was 16, travelling by ship to the UK with a friend and her father. We were at dinner and I had to go to the loo, but when I stood up there was blood all over the chair -- terrible, as the other two people at the table were men!

My friend walked behind me to the loo and then she left me there and went to our cabin for a change of clothes (the loo was closer than the cabin). I got changed safely and privately in the ladies'.

BaronEssoStation · 31/07/2020 13:45

That list of tales from the Ladies toilets over the years was very moving and very relevant these days.

BaronEssoStation · 31/07/2020 13:43

Sorry, Dreeple, I assumed you had some glitter shits pre-rolled and ready to give to worthy causes.

Glad to hear that's not the case!

Datun · 31/07/2020 13:37

[quote Winniefred]@Kelcat9494 "I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really"

1978 Ladies Toilets Glasgow Queen St 10pmish : A voice could be heard in the next cubical, a lady in distress, I responded - I was 15yrs old and didn't know what a prolapse was but it sounded scary as hell. I collard another Woman 50ish and she told me to go phone an ambulance ASAP. I did, I told the station manager and he came down, the now 3 Women blocked him ..."this is Woman's business go wait for the ambulance." He did, he knew when he wasn't needed nor wanted.

1996 Halifax Municiple Toilets: Ladies distressed voice crying "No, no, no "... I responded along with another lady, we convinced her to open the door she was miscarrying badly ... I had never seen so much blood, great big massive clots that would take two hands to hold & I was used to stitching up animals and putting prolapse back in sheep and burying dead lambs by this time. It rocked me emotionally. Yet the way the other Woman responded was something to behold, female solidarity of experience ... that day I learned how common this was and the necessity of maintaining female sex based dignity in a crisis on the open floor of a LADIES LOO. This was female business no room for men, even her husband was asked by her to remain outside and watch for the ambulance.

2002 Southampton West Quay. Pregnant with 2nd child ... mild pain in my abdomen, felt like a desperate need to pee went to the loo, blood, quite heavy, then pressure, I thought I had pooped, it was a clot a big one, then another ... called for help, a lady had a mobile, she phoned for an ambulance and they talked her through how to position me on the open floor ... this couldn't be happening to me ... not a like for like experience to that poor Woman years ago. It was hell! But 3 Women took charge, female dignity, care, compassion, understanding. Again I learned this happened way more frequently than most realise ..it's Woman's business but it's long past time we talked openly about it.

2016 Paris Gender Neutral Toilet: Had been warned by french friends not to enter alone if I had to use at all, always ensure you enter with another female better still go to a cafe and use theirs buy a coffee or cake. I waited, saw a lady approach look at me and nod, we entered together got chatting ... she told me "another Woman was raped in these loos that week."

Just because the norm is to pee, it doesn't mean that only peeing happens in loos ... life, biology, sex has other issues going on that we don't see, know, experience individually but collectively we as Women manage, silently. There is never any reason for any male to be in female toilets not even to clean ... that is Woman's business and should be a safe space from the male gaze for older Women at risk of prolapse, Women at risk of miscarriage, for Women to take 5 from their abuser, stalker & rapists. I cannot count the number of Women that phoned from female toilets for help after being raped or sexually assaulted. To centre males is a blind spot of cognitive dissonance around female reality and a dismissal of female reality. Don't buy into Male "feeling" he has no place in the horror of female biology in a patriarchal world. X

[/quote]
Yes!

Women's toilets are there to cater to women's biology, including miscarriages, morning sickness, mopping up leaked lactation, flooding periods, etc.

It's unsurprising that males in general perceive a toilet as a place to point and pee.

It's telling that, despite being told, they still don't care.

PinkyU · 31/07/2020 13:35

And if the paramedic or emergency responder is male? I mean they obviously shouldn’t enter the toilet as “there is NEVER any reason for any male to be in the female toilet”, the other women present should, what? just drag a bleeding miscarrying woman to the door? After all, “it’s women’s business”.

Utter stupidity and hyperbole.

Dreeple · 31/07/2020 13:32

BaronEssoStation “I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them.” That's a messy job; have you washed your hands?

I said I don’t!

MarDhea · 31/07/2020 13:23

Brava Winniefred.

A magnificent post ❤️

Winniefred · 31/07/2020 12:37

@Kelcat9494 "I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really"

1978 Ladies Toilets Glasgow Queen St 10pmish : A voice could be heard in the next cubical, a lady in distress, I responded - I was 15yrs old and didn't know what a prolapse was but it sounded scary as hell. I collard another Woman 50ish and she told me to go phone an ambulance ASAP. I did, I told the station manager and he came down, the now 3 Women blocked him ..."this is Woman's business go wait for the ambulance." He did, he knew when he wasn't needed nor wanted.

1996 Halifax Municiple Toilets: Ladies distressed voice crying "No, no, no "... I responded along with another lady, we convinced her to open the door she was miscarrying badly ... I had never seen so much blood, great big massive clots that would take two hands to hold & I was used to stitching up animals and putting prolapse back in sheep and burying dead lambs by this time. It rocked me emotionally. Yet the way the other Woman responded was something to behold, female solidarity of experience ... that day I learned how common this was and the necessity of maintaining female sex based dignity in a crisis on the open floor of a LADIES LOO. This was female business no room for men, even her husband was asked by her to remain outside and watch for the ambulance.

2002 Southampton West Quay. Pregnant with 2nd child ... mild pain in my abdomen, felt like a desperate need to pee went to the loo, blood, quite heavy, then pressure, I thought I had pooped, it was a clot a big one, then another ... called for help, a lady had a mobile, she phoned for an ambulance and they talked her through how to position me on the open floor ... this couldn't be happening to me ... not a like for like experience to that poor Woman years ago. It was hell! But 3 Women took charge, female dignity, care, compassion, understanding. Again I learned this happened way more frequently than most realise ..it's Woman's business but it's long past time we talked openly about it.

2016 Paris Gender Neutral Toilet: Had been warned by french friends not to enter alone if I had to use at all, always ensure you enter with another female better still go to a cafe and use theirs buy a coffee or cake. I waited, saw a lady approach look at me and nod, we entered together got chatting ... she told me "another Woman was raped in these loos that week."

Just because the norm is to pee, it doesn't mean that only peeing happens in loos ... life, biology, sex has other issues going on that we don't see, know, experience individually but collectively we as Women manage, silently. There is never any reason for any male to be in female toilets not even to clean ... that is Woman's business and should be a safe space from the male gaze for older Women at risk of prolapse, Women at risk of miscarriage, for Women to take 5 from their abuser, stalker & rapists. I cannot count the number of Women that phoned from female toilets for help after being raped or sexually assaulted. To centre males is a blind spot of cognitive dissonance around female reality and a dismissal of female reality. Don't buy into Male "feeling" he has no place in the horror of female biology in a patriarchal world. X

Cascade220 · 31/07/2020 12:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

terryleather · 31/07/2020 11:57

Go on yersel' Winniefred !

Datun · 31/07/2020 11:20

Oh I've posted on the wrong thread. I'll get that post deleted. And I've quoted the wrong person!

TheTamingOfTheresa · 31/07/2020 11:14

@Winniefred respect x

JonHammIsMyJamm · 31/07/2020 11:05

They can, @Portnlemon but it’s not good for ad revenue to lose that many clicks in one fell swoop. Plus, I suspect that there’s a bit of MNHQ that agrees with us but is afraid of the overly litigious TRAs and their aggressive and apparently successful ongoing campaign of fear.

Datun · 31/07/2020 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request - posted on wrong thread.

Portnlemon · 31/07/2020 11:00

Most of us feel the same way as Winniefred. You can't delete us all.

highame · 31/07/2020 10:45

@Winniefred That piece just rocks. Straight from the heart and you could tell.

Mumsnet sometimes you have to take a stand. I hope it's sooner rather than later. That is not a hate post.

OvaHere · 31/07/2020 10:40

You have a virtual like from me too @Winniefred although I'm sure you're right about the inevitable deletion. Far too much truth telling for a Friday morning!

JonHammIsMyJamm · 31/07/2020 10:37

If there was a like button on here, @Winniefred, I’d press it a thousand times.

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