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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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lionheart · 05/07/2020 13:04

OP: How did you manage to get far enough into this site to see what you describe as 'the hate trans people get on here' but not the arguments made about all of the issues involved?

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 05/07/2020 13:03

Question for you OP. If you saw a young girl go alone into a female only toilet, followed by the person from the attached photo, what would you do?

If your answer was anything other than "mind my own business and say or do nothing" then congratulations, you're now guilty of a hate crime.

Do you think that if this became the social norm it would put women and girls in more or less danger from men?

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.
TheWordWomanIsTaken · 05/07/2020 13:03

@ShadowMane

It's people like my ex I have an issue with considering he told me "the best thing about the GRA is that you'll have no where I cant access".

So your ex wouldn't go in to a toilet marked female to get to you if he really wanted to? Anyone who wants to get to someone will get to to them

Ah, so because someone is determined to get to a certain woman, he would enter the female toilets if he really wanted to? That makes it all open season for all women and girls does it? So men are going to do it anyway so we should just give them unfettered access to our spaces? Get. To. Fuck.
PastMyBestBeforeDate · 05/07/2020 13:02

It's long but do think hard about wellbehavedwomens's post earlier in the thread.

EdgeOfACoin · 05/07/2020 13:02

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

So because some trans people pass, women should not have the right to request an HCP who is the same sex as them?

That doesn't make sense to me...

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 05/07/2020 13:01

If you wanted a female to conduct an intimate exam you would not think that either of those were female would you?

which probably rules out careers of that type for those individuals. choices have consequences innit?

Bluebooby · 05/07/2020 13:01

Female only spaces are more than just toilets, though given there are men who install spy cameras, and men who rummage through bins for used sanitary wear, I very much want female only toilets. But there are also prisons, refuges, mental health units and hospital wards, personal care for the elderly and vulnerable, where safety and dignity may be much more of an issue. As well as sports, where it is just plain unfair for women and girls who train long and hard to be forced to compete against bodies with a male advantage.

I've not had my period at several times in my life. When I was younger before they had started, when I was on contraception and they stopped, when I had an eating disorder and my weight dropped too low which happened several times in my 20s and again in 30s, and then when I was pregnant. Not once of those times did I feel any offence at either being called a women or hearing that only women have periods, nor did I feel my status as woman was under any threat. Women who have their uteruses removed have never designed a mass outrage campaign towards anything that describes women as having a uterus.

I didn't plan to have dc and wasn't even sure I would be able to get pregnant (though I did in the end), and never felt the need to jump into conversations about how only women can carry babies and breastfeed, and tell them they were excluding me, because I knew they weren't. Nobody cared before. We all knew that saying only X can do Y is not the same as saying all X do Y or X = Y.

Reducing women to body parts and functions is dehumanising, and we get told that's what we are doing, when we are not. We are saying women are adult human females who can do, wear and be as they please but our biological reality is still a reality. They are the ones literally calling us menstruaters and uterus-havers.

Cis - this label has been forced on us. Recently there has been a switch to describe this as meaning "not trans". Initially we were told it meant "a person whose biological sex and gender identity align". That didn't work as so many of us said we did not have a gender identity, so they're now trying to get around that by saying "oh it's just another way of saying 'not -trans'". It's not, but they are set on making us as a subset of our own sex, often using racist arguments to do so. We aren't allowed to use the word "woman". The dictionary definition of the word used to describe our biological reality has been called hate speech.

We are told that "genital preferences" are transphobic, and they're not even subtle at directing this mostly towards lesbians and trying to shame them into accepting men into their bedrooms, which is pure rape language.

Children are being taught that if they don't match up to a narrow set of stereotypes, they may be trans and they can be "fixed" with life long drugs and surgery causing irreversible changes to their body. Autistic, homosexual and traumatised children are especially vulnerable to this.

Meanwhile, people who more commonly would have described themselves as transsexual and many of whom accept their biological sex for what it is, and some of whom geuininely do just want to get on with their lives and want children to be left alone, are being demonised by the groups that claim to represent them and told they're self hating and transphobic, despite being trans.

SerenityNowwwww · 05/07/2020 12:59

See Scott Newgent for interesting tweets. Pulls no punches.

Odense · 05/07/2020 12:58

Buck Angel is pretty hot though. In a ‘who’s your surprising crush‘ kinda way.

Lovelydovey · 05/07/2020 12:57

Forget the toilets.

Your 14 year old daughter changes for PE in the female changing rooms. Ok so far?

Another pupil at her school identifies as female but is male bodied. Again, all fine. Nobody has a problem with that.

That pupil needs to be treated with dignity and respect. We all agree this is needed.

But allowing that pupil to change in the female changing rooms, with no consideration for the female pupils. Not ok.

Female pupils being considered transphobic and of committing hate crimes if they object to this to changing alongside a male bodied pupil. Outrageous. Female pupils

Trans rights are needed, but they cannot be allowed to trample over hard won female rights.

gluteustothemaximus · 05/07/2020 12:57

Don't hate transpeople.

Just don't think their rights trump another groups rights.

It's very one sided over there on the far left. If you don't agree (not even allowed to discuss) then you're a TERF, cancelled, abused online.

It's very disturbing.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 05/07/2020 12:56

The right to a same sex person doing your smear test or breast scan?

The right to a same sex person giving you a body search?

It's statements like this that really do confuse me. Looking at the pictures that op posted, women who ask for a female would be fine with the people in the first two pictures then? That makes just no sense at all to me. If you wanted a female to conduct an intimate exam you would not think that either of those were female would you?

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 12:56

@ivykaty44

I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat

and thats the issue I

can you help me understand
are you able to explain

Again if I don't understand something and I am asking to see it from other people's views then I'm going to talk about myself and my experience with it. That doesn't mean I can't or won't understand other people's views on it and try and consider where they are coming from and think "oh I didn't see it like that before" unfortunately I don't have the capability to understand all situations from everyone's point of view and it's great other people can but that's why I asked.
OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 05/07/2020 12:53

@Kelcat9494

Thank you for taking the time to stick around and listen.

ivykaty44 · 05/07/2020 12:52

I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat

and thats the issue I

can you help me understand
are you able to explain

MrBennsshop · 05/07/2020 12:52

I find the faux naivete of posters who start these threads and are 'keen to learn' or 'want to understand' tiresome.

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 05/07/2020 12:51

OP kudos to you for sticking around and reading what people are writing. Flowers

A lot of people come to this debate with your opinion. I did, because like so many women, I am a kind person. I watched the film TransAmerica years ago and sat there feeling such empathy with trans women, who I considered incredibly vulnerable and genuinely born into the wrong body. I remember reading on here years ago 'trans women are men' and CRINGING - how could the women here be so blunt and mean. I so very nearly posted telling people they were transphobes Blush Like you, I would have said I had zero problem with trans women using women's loos.

Anyway, I did a lot of reading here and changed my mind and it felt deeply uncomfortable at first but I don't feel uncomfortable anymore.

I DO have a problem sharing things like loos with trans women. If I walked into one fairly late at night at a service station or somewhere similar and I caught sight of a male body I would instinctively feel terrified and vulnerable. Even if the person inhabiting that male body was in fact a gentle, kind person who truly believed they had been born in the wrong body (although, do gentle kind people trample over the fears and boundaries of women and go into places where they will alarm people?). I don't want to go through life feeling more vulnerable having experienced sexual assault. I want to feel society cares about women like me who want sex segregation in certain places.

I do acknowledge a tiny minority of people have crippling gender dysphoria. I feel sympathy with those people but I don't want to completely restructure society to alleviate their distress, if in doing so we make vast numbers of women less safe. There are other ways of accommodating them. I also believe a huge number of 'trans' people actually just have fetishes around being seen as female and being sexually degraded in connection with that. The more you read about that, the more your eyes will open. No, I don't want to be kind to them, thank you very much and bullshit are they vulnerable.

SerenityNowwwww · 05/07/2020 12:51

If you want hateful just take a look on twitter. There’s a person with boobs and a penis posting a full frontal photo of themselves with an invitation to a names 78 year old woman to suck their you-know-what. Also a person offering to punch women.

Coffeeandbeans · 05/07/2020 12:50

I was shown a plan for a new bar space by a manager. It had unisex toilets. 3 Self contained cubicles but within one room. I said I would feel Unsafe queuing in the one room waiting for a cubicle to become free. I would look behind as I walk into the cubicle. He said to me this gender stuff is too complicated. I was too scared to say anymore as I felt I would lose my job if I raised my concerns. That is why I’m fed up up. That women are being denied the opportunity to raise safety concerns when our gut feeling is shouting at us. We are told to move over and let the 0.01% of the population tell me to ignore my safety concerns and my years of being a woman.

PenelopePitstop49 · 05/07/2020 12:50

When transactivists acknowledge and discuss autogynpehilia, I'll be all ears.

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 12:50

@Mascotte

Your post together with the pervy pictures makes me feel uneasy.
Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any offence. They came up on a google search and wasn't intended to be "Pervy" in anyway.
OP posts:
Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 12:49

I appreciate everyone's response, and thank you. There's obviously some things I haven't considered and more pressing matters than who has periods and what bathroom people use. In an ideal world I suppose they would be male, female and a optional unisex bathroom anyone could use. (I am from the UK by the way).
I did read some of the more hateful threads are deleted so maybe those were the ones I came across and wrongly assumed it was a huge majority on this forum which obviously isn't the case as most of you have provided really helpful and insightful answers.
I promise I will educate myself more and look at pressing issues that threaten women as a women, it's correct that we shouldn't set ourselves on fire to keep someone else warm because over the last 100 and odd years we have fought hard for our rights and they shouldn't be taken away, I agree.
I will educate myself and who knows maybe my next post will be highly intelligent and well educated.

Thanks guys Smile

OP posts:
SerenityNowwwww · 05/07/2020 12:48

@AnyOldPrion

this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through.

Not sure why you think we haven’t. Traumatic experiences and mental illness are wholly irrelevant to which sex you are. If a gay man has been bullied relentlessly in male spaces, would you advocate for him to use women’s spaces too?

Also those currently claiming this trauma include cross-dressing men and transvestites. There was little objection from women when transsexual males were using our spaces, so then more and more men decided to jump on that bandwagon. At what point do women get to say “stop”? Or is that for men to decide?

Go through what? With the whole umbrella people need to ‘go through’ very very little. In Scotland the law has accommodated those who merely say ‘I’m a woman’ and no questions may be asked.
merrymouse · 05/07/2020 12:48

By the way, OP, your first picture is of Buck Angel, who has been supportive of JK Rowling.

wellbehavedwomen · 05/07/2020 12:46

@Collidascope

I haven't read the whole thread as I don't have time, but some quick points from reading your first post, OP.
  1. Disagreeing with someone isn't hate. I disagree that trans women are women in the same way that I (an atheist) disagree that Orthodox Jews are "the chosen people." It doesn't mean I hate them. I just disagree with their estimation of themselves.
  1. Male and female toilets are separate because, among other reasons, women are safer when they have their own spaces when it comes to being vulnerable - e.g. removing clothes. Males commit 98% of sex crimes and trans women offend at the same rate as other men. It's not about being trans-exclusionary. It's about being male-exclusionary.
  1. Loos are the thing that get focussed on at the expense of other issues. Sports, refuges, prisons, hospital wards, women's clubs, changing rooms.
  1. There's also the issue of free speech. If I say I think belief in God is a load of guff, I wouldn't expect to be sacked for that, even if it offends some people. And yet women have been sacked for saying they don't believe in gender ideology and won't use the terms associated with it. That should worry you no matter what you believe. You know, "first they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out..."
This is beautifully put. Yes. This.