Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

Kelcat, what do you suggest we should do about facilities for women and girls (female ones) who cannot use mixed facilities, and cannot pretend to themselves that male people in there are female?

If your answer is 'They should pretend harder', that doesn't sound to me like being kind.

Case in point (now no longer an issue because Covid cancelled it all, but...): My daughter's school has a recently declared transgirl. In other words, a teenage boy that the pupils have grown up with, and know full well to be male, even if the height and baritone voice weren't a hint.

On the school trip abroad, where should the staff choose to place this teenager? Male dorms, or female? Can they actually even discuss it without being called transphobic?

I know there is also a girl in that year and friendship group who was raped. She needs single sex facilities to have any confidence in school life. If she knows there is at least one boy (however nice) using the girls' facilities, she is left with nowhere to go. Her trauma doesn't handily vanish, you know.

I suppose that's one of the consequences of the moderation and deletion policy on this part of MN, OP.

You see the deletions and fill in the gaps with anything and everything.

It was a genuine question btw.

No one here has a problem with trans people. What we have a problem with is scenarios like:

1. Trans women - please don't refer to us as trans women as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - oh yes, of course, really sorry.

Natal women - please don't refer to us as cis women or menstruaters as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU TERF PIECE OF SHITS.

2. Male bodied athletes who consistently lose at a male catergory sport declaring themselves as female and consistently winning as they are biologically stronger and faster.

3. Male bodied people who are convicted of sex crimes declaring they identify as women and being housed in female prisons.

4. Male bodied teenagers being able to self identify their way into female rooms on school trips.

5. Reducing natal women and their struggles down to nothing more than a "feeling".

6. Giving children incredibly damaging drugs to halt puberty.

These things and many more are what we have a problem with....

I don't hate all trans people.

However I do hate males who decide they are trans who:

stay in a relationship with a woman
say they will not have surgery until after they have children
go back on their word and plan to have the surgery, removing the chance for their wife to have children
decide not to to go ahead with the transition to woman "because it is too much hassle" - so proving that they are not a genuine trans person as if there were then what choice would they have?

Is it purely chromosomes that people want these decisions based on, because that appears to be the argument when it comes to trans women?

No body "hates" trans people on here. Equating "it's important non-penis-havers feel safe because the system is utterly open to abuse" is not hate.

Just wanted to say that I’m liking the new ‘See All OP’s posts’ facility. On threads like this (I’ve come to this one 7 pages in) it’s great to be able to see how the OP has responded to all the posters before you launch in yourself. It makes it easy to identify those that are here to just stir and those who are potentially listening and may go on and put the work in to reach a greater understanding. Looks like this OP is the latter and I welcome that.

I think it’s important to remember that, particularly with younger posters, the debate has been simplified for many into ‘I don’t care who pees where - can’t we all just get along and stop being horrid to all the lovely, vulnerable trans people’. That’s the depth of the level of engagement some people evidently have with this issue.

This is a great place to come and explore the fact that there’s FAR, FAR more to it than that.

[quote EdgeOfACoin]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

So because some trans people pass, women should not have the right to request an HCP who is the same sex as them?

That doesn't make sense to me...[/quote]
No I'm not saying that. I'm just genuinely confused when people on here argue that it's basically your genetic make up that is important and nothing else.

So, a trans woman who passed is still considered male on here by many. If people ask for a female nurse they would not want a trans woman whether they passed or not. So, how do you write the regulations? A trans man is genetically female so the first two pictures should be welcomed, unchallenged, into women's toilets, prisons etc. Does that make any sense?

@Kelcat9494

This is a really good long running thread that explains many of the different issues.

It's not about "hating" individual trans people. It's the over arching structural harms the ideology presents to women and girls.

FWIW, you've posted a pic of Buck Angel who has agreed with a lot of the criticism towards the ideology.

Break it down for me? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

But a totally passing transperson is NOT a Gotcha!

Because the issues are not about individuals. They are about the laws.

Hypothetical whatifery doesn't actually make any point other than the issue us complex and needs to be discussed, openly.

Which is what TRA actions try to shut down.

Instead of asking me if I'd accept Buck Angel as my HCP, ask TRAs why they shut down open discussion.

I hate nobody, and have honestly never seen any trabsphiboa as I would understand it on these boards.

I find your op fascinating, in that you are unable to imagine other people have different feelings to you.

You feel completely OK in mixed sex toilets, it causes you no discomfort whatsoever with men present. But other women have an issue with that - and you don't need to feel the same or even understand why they feel uncomfortable. You just need to appreciate that they really do. They are asking for single sex facilities, wy is it not OK for them to voice that request? Just because you are completely OK with no single sex provision, can you not just know that some women truly feel distressed bu not being able to access single sex spaces, and that their discomfort is as valid as others'?

Why do you just get to brush over every single counter concern you've heard of? Why are all of those worries, which are shared by a huge number of women, to be glossed Iver and dismissed as you so quickly do in your op? Can you not just take a single moment to consider a different viewpoint and see that there is something other than 'hate' in what thousands of people are saying?

bygrabharshammer

You possibly should explain, for the benefit of those at the back that you have posted a picture of a Lady. A specific activist lady.

You don’t want to be responsible for encouraging transphobic thought crime, now do you. 🤣

Thank you for being so open minded Kelcat, I hope you continue to research and learn more.

Hi OP
Could you please give me an example of the "hate" that you're thinking of? That will help me formulate a reply
Thank you

So your ex wouldn't go in to a toilet marked female to get to you if he really wanted to? Anyone who wants to get to someone will get to to them

I though that transwomen needed to use female loos because they weren't safe in male ones? But if anyone can go in a female loo if they want to do harm then transwomen presumably aren't safe in there anyway.

I think a lot of what makes the "debate" so vicious is that many TRAs simply refuse to accept the logic of their own position. IF you genuinely believe that a man only needs to say he's a woman to be accepted as a woman then you accept that a woman has no rights to object to a male bodied person going into a female locker room and stripping off. Yet when that's pointed out there's an instant cry of "transphobe". It would be much more honest to say "yes, that is what I believe". At least then we could have a fair argument.

Kelcat9494 You got my back up with your provocative and totally incorrect thread title, you can provide no evidence of this it is a pathetic trope to throw out solely designed to dismiss and shame the posters who frequent this board. However, as you have apologised and admitted you have not read or understood the threads on here I will leave it there but perhaps in future you could take the time to, as the TRA's say, educate yourself on what is actually being said before insulting and demonising a group of people.

On the subject of toilets, you say:

I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia.

You don't sound sorry at all, you are dismissing the trauma that poster has suffered and saying that the trans person and their perceived risk is more important and more worthy, how is that being kind, in your words, to the female who suffered abuse and where does that leave her? Unable to access toilets or changing rooms and you don't care, that is why another poster called you out on your privilege - it doesn't affect you and you give no thought or consideration to those it does, your concern is for TW only.

You say the fault is with the abuser alone, dismissing again the effect this abuse has had on the victim, and state that it isn't trans peoples fault. It's not the fault of the male members of my family either, they would never and have never abused anyone so by your logic they too should be allowed to access female toilets and changing rooms, after all we don't check genitalia do we?

As to the assertion that a trans person is more at risk in a toilet please provide evidence for this, surely you have some?

Whilst you are thinking about risks perhaps you would think about the two young girls, one aged 10 and the other 12, who were attacked and assaulted in the female toilets of a supermarket by a transwoman, would you like to tell them to their faces that trans people are more at risk?

There you go, OP has become a TERF by page 6 and doesn't want to give away women's rights.

Welcome to FWR!!!

OP, you said “my impression of trans people are those who don't identify with the gender of their body and go through procedures (whether it be the full blown transition or taking medication) to make them identify more with the gender they feel they are.”

I used to think this way too. But unfortunately your ideas about trans people are about ten years out of date. Most trans rights activists deeply disagree with the view that they need to do anything medical to transition because this is considered medical gatekeeping. There are massive fights between those who believe you need dysphoria to be trans and those who think being trans is just about self declaration (truscum v tucute). At the moment the prevailing theory is that you don’t need dysphoria or any kind of medical treatment to qualify as trans. The view you have presented is actually very controversial and is not accepted by stonewall, for example.

So this means that you don’t need any procedures to be trans, and you certainly don’t need to feel any kind of “mismatch” between your body and your mind. It’s not at all unusual to see many “trans women” discuss how much they love their penises.

If there’s no medical requirement to being trans then what makes someone trans? The dominant view today is that someone is trans if they self identify or declare they are trans. That’s it. It’s not necessary to look or act a certain way, or obtain a medical diagnosis. This is why there has been a push for a change in the law to let trans people self identify as whatever sex they like. This would mean that I, a female, could just take a declaration that I feel like a male and then I would be legally male. That’s it. No diagnosis, no medical interventions , nothing . There is a requirement that I should have “lived in my chosen gender” for at least two months but that doesn’t seem to mean anything in practice - women have obtained gender recognition certificates while being in the process of getting IVF treatment, so clearly getting pregnant and having a baby is perfectly compatible with being a man.

What we are concerned about is this complete identification free for all will pose a massive danger for women and girls and will also erode our rights. If being a woman is just as simple as saying “I am a woman” this will enable predatory men to get access to female spaces. I knew a guy who seemed perfectly normal and sweet - he was shy and nerdy. Well it turns out that he had a habit of sneaking into female bathrooms and installing spy cameras. He would film women using the toilet and turn it into pornography- hundreds of his videos made it online. In the end he was caught in the bathroom and a woman raised the alarm. His male presence in the bathroom was automatically suspicious and he has no good reason to be there. And then security found all of his equipment in his bag. But imagine how wonderful it would have been for him if he could identify as a woman! He could just say “I am a woman and I have a right to be here” and then could carry on his merry way. I’d also like to point out that while this crime is rare I would wager it would be a lot more common if the risk of being caught was reduced. Men who masturbate and expose themselves in public report that they are far less likely to do it if official sanctions are in place. When New York City cracked down on men masturbating in the subway the practice almost disappeared over night. Predators are highly risk averse - they don’t want to be caught and embarrassed. Self id laws are a sexual predators dream.

And that’s just the start of it. Forget about toilets - that’s nothing . How about male bodied people in your changing rooms? In rape crisis centres? In women’s shelters ? How about males winning female only positions or scholarships? How about males in female sports? Males being “women’s officers”? Males in intimate caring roles? You turn up for a sexual health check and request a female doctor - it could actually be a male. Oh and because being a woman is all about self identify - that means that “women with penises” are actually lesbian and you’re a bigot if you don’t accept them as women (this isn’t a myth - this is something I’ve personally experienced). How about males in lesbian only clubs and spaces ? A male rapist in a female prison? A male demanding access to your female only waxing business and requesting you wax his private parts ? (Sounds bonkers - there was a massive tribunal case all about this.)

So this was just to catch you up to speed, somewhat, op. We haven’t even covered the erasure of women’s language (various organisations have called us “non men”, menstruators, cervix havers...) the abuse and vitriol that women encounter for even daring to discuss this issue (many women have been fired. A woman just lost her writing job for the sin of tweeting her support of jk Rowling). We haven’t discussed the alarming increase in the number of “trans children” (oh yes and here’s something else. While self Id is fine for adult trans people and is what they want, self id is NOT fine for children who are trans. The demand in this area is that children go on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as soon as possible. Apparently they will kill themselves if they go through the wrong puberty. Confused yet? Kids need to go on drugs as soon as possible to affirm their gender but adults don’t need to go on any drugs at all. So your medical view of transness is correct - for children).

The individual in the photo BTW is called Danielle Muscato and no, that's not part of a before and after sequence, that's how they always look. Danielle is legally a woman and uses all female only spaces. Can you understand why many women are now excluded from those spaces for reasons of trauma, religion, or just wanting privacy?

@Kelcat9494

Why are Transwoman, more at risk in the bathroom?

If it's because using the male bathroom means other males harass and abuse them, then this needs dealing with.

The only abuse a transwoman, who doesn't pass, would receive in the women toilets, changing rooms is get out this is for women.

Why don't they put effort into campaigning for their own toilets, changing rooms, etc

I don't have any hatred towards transpeople whatsoever. I just don't believe that a transwoman is the same as a woman.

I think if transwoman are women is believed it leads to a situation where it becomes difficult to discuss and support issues that effect women and girls. Statistics that governments rely on for planning and budgeting will change. An increasing amount of women will suffer from prostate cancer. Less women will suffer from endometriosis. Less women will suffer from ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, osteoporosis, anaemia, breast cancer, prolapse of the womb, uterine cancer. It will be said these issues only affect x% of women instead of the true figure.

An increasing amount of women will be involved in violent crime. An increasing amount of women will rape. An increasing amount of women will murder. And no, I don't believe transwomen are out to get me, just like I don't believe men are out to get me. But any man can pretend to be a woman, commit crime and have it recorded as a woman's crime by saying they are transgender. They can then be sent to a women's prison and commtt further crime against women there. This is actually happening at the moment.

An increasing amount of women's positions as specific women's officers will be held by people who don't know or can't imagine what it's like to not have enough money for sanitary products, not to be taken seriously by a doctor when in pain, to feel intimidated by someone much much bigger and stronger than you, to have your ideas not taken seriously.

Companies will be able to say 50% of their workforce are women and they have no gender pay gap and it will be true. 50% of their board of directors are women and it will be true. Women of child bearing age may be discriminated against in favour of a woman of child bearing age who does not a female body. Companies who do this could do it blatantly and openly, because all of those women will be legally the same. A woman can't say she has been discriminated against for promotion or employment if there is no legal definition of a woman that means a person who has been female since conception.

The amount of money the highest earning woman in the United States will be trotted out as evidence that women also earn millions of dollars. Women with very lived experience as women will win accolades as women of the year. Women who know what it's like to be a woman will not.

Breaking women's sports records will become unattainable for women. Scholarships and bursaries based on sports will not be available for women. Contact sports will become unsafe for women as women's bodies are more fragile and susceptible to damage from bodies that are bigger, heavier and stronger than them.

Women who are survivors of male violence including rape will not be able to request a born female health care practitioner. Because gender dysphoria trumps women's trauma.

Women will have no protection in law if the meaning of woman is no longer female. That's the way law works. It's all words and what they mean.

If women weren't facing oppression there wouldn't be laws to protect us. If you change the meaning of woman, the laws become meaningless.

I have great sympathy for anyone suffering from gender dysphoria. It must be terrible. I have fuck all sympathy for men pretending to be women for selfish reasons. If anybody who says they are a woman is a woman, the former group gets lumped in with the latter group, in society and under the law. That's bad for everyone.

Trans rights are needed, but they cannot be allowed to trample over hard won female rights.

this ^

and by trampling over those rights you'll make plenty of enemies, instead of joining forces and being stronger

I don't hate trans people at all, far from it.

I hate the violence and abuse dished out in spades by a large number of TRAs to women who want to save women's sport and women's hard-won sex based rights.

I hate the blanking and shutting down of people who believe that women are adult human females. As I understand it there are many trans people who don't disagree with this fact.

It's the bigoted, dogmatic, violent, hate-fuelled, misogynistic ones that I have a problem with.