Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

Kelcat

A few more things.

In this era of the growing popularity of menstrual cups, how do you recommend women deal with these in a unisex toilet with public basins. Even if they merely wipe out the cup, if they are very heavy like mine, there is blood on hands. Would you be happy to wash bloody hands in the public gaze? I most certainly would not.

Plus I have been known to have to rinse and use the hand driers to dry my skirt, even at work. I think it would simply mean that for two days every cycle (mine is 21 days and flooding regularly thanks to Peri menopause) I would experience the period leash.

And so the people in the first two pictures would be legally able to apply for those jobs then. On what grounds would the service users be able to object?

And on that reasoning, females lose access to single sex services and females who cannot use mixed sex provisions, such as same sex hcps, are excluded.

Carefully lit photographs of celebrities who are unusually beautiful suggest that for the majority of trans people, no one would ever know they were trans. However someone like India Willoughby 'passes' (I hate that term but can't think of a better way to put it) in photographs. India, while still stunning, does not 'pass' on live action tv because of the way India moves, speaks, the proportions.

Is the patient, who can only access a needed intimate medical care procedure if a same sex person arrives, going to be allowed to be the judge of whether or not the person who arrives is to their subjective perception same sex? Which invites the question: should we be trying to play games like this, which are deceptive, on patients needing same sex, or should we respect that some females need female only and this is ok? And some females will be happy with a hcp of either sex and this is ok too?

Who is going to decide who 'passes' enough and how is this in any way reasonable or fair to TW? Daniella who's photograph is above for example, or Alex Thingumabob, TW who love their beards and masculine presentations as TW - if they arrive to do that intimate procedure how do you deal with that?

Likewise, how as a professional responsible for patient care, is it fair, reasonable, or even kind to walk in as someone male presenting with beard and say "I'm the same sex professional you wanted to do your intimate, highly anxiety provoking procedure"? Any professional doing this job is going to be more interested in their patient feeling safe, comfortable and getting the procedure done than their own needs being met by their patient: that's what a professional is.

Why can we just not respect that some females have these needs and those needs should be respected? Because the result of forcing this for 'equality' purposes, is to terrify, distress, possibly criminalise and exclude some females from accessing needed services. No one with a balanced view of intersectionality, equality and diversity is going to find this an acceptable outcome.

"imagine ... being attacked and hated for who you are"

I’m a woman. I don’t need to imagine that, I live it. Anyone who doesn’t think that’s part of being a woman doesn’t understand what a woman is.

We don’t have age laws for marriage, sexual activity, smoking, drinking based on the age someone identifies with. We have them because protecting as many people as possible requires a clearly defined unarguable age. We split various sports, services, facilities by sex because doing this way protects the highest number of people. There are already very clear specific exceptions for those with a GRA. What is being demanded would take that high number of protected people and reduce it to a very small number of protected people.

I don’t understand why pointing this out is considered hate.

I'm sorry if my response didn't seem compassionate, I wasn't dismissing her abuse but what I was trying to say was I don't understand how being abused should affect trans woman going in to the bathroom? (Obviously I know differently now but this was my original thought).

To be honest I struggle with your lack of understanding I wouldn't have thought it was that difficult. You have touted for sympathy and understanding of trans people and yet were unable to extend that to women who want to retain their sex based rights. Women should not have to justify or explain why they want to retain and have these rights strengthened and enforced, why should female victims of trauma, disabled females, religious females, elderly females, any females have to give reasons, no is a reasonable and, should be, perfectly acceptable response.

There are perfectly simple and straightforward solutions but TRA's don't want them, why would that be - misogyny, sexism and unabashed hatred of women is why.

Yes I think so "hearHooves", legally I think they would be able to apply to a job that was specifically just for females.

Of course as with any job just because you're entitled to apply, doesn't mean you're right for the job and clearly someone who looked like Buck would be unsuitable. If lots of passing trans men applied and were rejected then they might have a discrimination case but I think it's unlikely. But funnily enough trans men don't seem to be champing at the bit to make vulnerable women feel uncomfortable and threatened. Must be all that female socialisation they experienced.

I certainly don't hate transgender people. What I hate and will fight hard against is the blatantly male, misogynistic aggressive silencing and attempts to control biological women's freedom of speech and rights by a violent sector of the transgender mobvement. And I find it tragic - absolutely tragic that so many people are wokely, sheepishly falling in behind this horrific group.
If you read what JKR wrote, it is balanced, thoughtful, supportive, sane. The barrage of attacks against her include death threats, 'kill the bitch', 'silence the bitch' comments. The hatred from not towards the trans community reminds me of white hatred of black people in the Deep South. Unashamed, gleeful, bloodthirsty desire to silence others, squash them down.

I've yet to hear a transwoman say: 'Biological women, as a transwoman I am extremely interested in the historical silencing and violent oppression of women. I am deeply concerned that the transcommunity is perpetuating this. I recognise that biologically you have needs and challenges and differences that have been used against you, to ridicule, shame, belittle and oppress you. I refuse to play any part in the current version of this oppression coming from my own community. I will fight hard on your behalf for your rights to be heard, respected, acknowledged because as someone who identifies as a woman, I choose to be on your side not the side of your on-going oppressors."

The truth is, women have always been oppressed. Male-dominated societies will find ever more novel ways to remind women we deserve to be killed for having the gall to express opinions. The current 'die-bitch, shut the fuck up bitch' oppression by transwomen with penises towards biological women with wombs and breasts just makes us yawn. Been there before. Heard it before. Recognise the penis talking. Recognise the penis's outrage that its entitlement isn't being submissively and immediately fulfilled by women. Women with wombs.

Erin Anderson who has also been known as Aaron in the past according to Lad Bible.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras sex is a biological fact. Yes, it's chromosomes.

EVERYTHING @Sparklfairy said. All of it. Please please read what she's written.

No one here has a problem with trans people. What we have a problem with is scenarios like:

1) Trans women - please don't refer to us as trans women as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - oh yes, of course, really sorry.

Natal women - please don't refer to us as cis women or menstruaters as we feel it invalidates our identity. Please refer to us as women as that is what we are.

Society - SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU TERF PIECE OF SHITS.

2) Male bodied athletes who consistently lose at a male catergory sport declaring themselves as female and consistently winning as they are biologically stronger and faster.

3) Male bodied people who are convicted of sex crimes declaring they identify as women and being housed in female prisons

4) Male bodied teenagers being able to self identify their way into female rooms on school trips.

5) Reducing natal women and their struggles down to nothing more than a "feeling".

6) Giving children incredibly damaging drugs to halt puberty.

These things and many more are what we have a problem with.

^^This. No hate for transpeople on this site - this is a media-perpetratored myth that no one actually bothers to think might be false. But all the above. When the fuck was the pursuit of fairness or safety "hating"?

As a heterosexual man, I have a few observations: -

1. Anyone with any empathy should be able to see that women are the most likely people to be assaulted with a penis and should therefore be able to access penis-free environments.
2. It is beyond disappointing that such a large number of those identifying as women are not prepared to compromise their own freedoms or opportunities to protect the interests of more vulnerable women.
3. There seems to be a particularly unpleasant tendency from the airbrushed and photoshopped 'thought-leaders' in society that a lack of drive toward continuous self-transformation is a sign of morally repugnant laziness.
4. Dismissive terms such as Cis-gender and TERF seem to imply that one born female, suffering the chance of period-shaming and other forms of abuse peculiar to pubescent females has had a life presented on a plate that is inferior to a gender identity chosen and fought for later in life.

I don't know of anyone who wishes to reverse the freedoms of transgender people to choose their identity, have it recognised on official paperwork, bank statements and have their loving partnerships recognised and respected. But those freedoms must bring with them responsibilities not to make the lives of those who are so often last in line for opportunities any worse.

Turn your argument round then. Say this was just about bog standard men and women.

Men crying "whhhyyyy won't my online date get in a car with me, I'm not a serial killer, I'M a nice guy. Why does she keep an eye on her drink, that offends me, I'm not going to date rape her. Why does she have to text her friend to let her know she's ok? That's so offensive. Whyyy does she want to meet in a crowded space only for coffee in the middle of the day, it's so unfair."

Because women judge risk constantly. And men (even nice guys) who take her wanting to keep on high alert just in case as a personal affront rather than caring about her feelings and respecting them, are arseholes.

The problem isn't trans people. It's arsehole men. If you meet a stranger online, there's a chance he's a rapist or anything. But (decent) men don't get all offended because women take precautions on their dates.

It's these arsehole men that will use being able to use women's spaces at will to their full advantage.

If you said you didn't want to walk down those dark alleys to get home after a night out because you might get attacked or mugged or worse, there might be drug addicts or people with mental health problems down there and it wouldn't be safe! You would get told you're sensible, not have the homeless people getting offended about it.

We judge risk and have spaces that are safe. And they're being taken from us.

imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are

Ahahahahahahaha......ooh that's a notnew one

No, I would never understand what that feels like. Maybe you can explain to me oh wise one.

Thank you for your opinion. I shall place it in my lessons on how to dismiss women’s rights box for reading later

Me too .

OP who are the people in those photos you have posted?

OP, I type really slowly and I see you posted again while I was thinking. I think you can see some of the issues now.

Hearhooves, I always read what you say with interest, but in the case of our schoolchildren it isn't very difficult to know the sex of the child concerned. They are the same sex they were last year, and all the other kids know that.

Yes hooves, we divide society purely based on chromosomes because of the strong evidence linking certain behaviours to those chromosomes

You are very, very fortunate op that you do not and have never experienced rape, absue, male violence, ptsd, or similar. Slow clap for you. Maybe then you would understand the innate drive to feel safe within a system that does not care about you, does not care about your safety or desire for safety, and would rather put the feelings of another group first than women who have been through serious, horrific trauma. You can't even begin to understand what it's like and to be honest I'm glad for you in a way you do not understand. Because it means you've never experienced it. I hope you never do. But why should another group be prioritised over a year I am incapable of controlling? Why should I be told to accommodate over people? Seriously, what the fuck? What the actual fuck? Let them have their own spaces. But the system as a whole is open to absolute abuse, as the research the Target stores in America proved with unisex spaces, let alone women and girls who deserve to feel safe when they've been through trauma.

You don't make laws for individual people you make them for a society.

Individual choices have consequences. If your choices mean you are barred from a profession then that is something you accept as a consequence of your choices.

I don't have to consider the one transman who wants to continue to be a midwife when I say all women have the right to a same sex HCP. The choice to change your appearance does not override the choice in law.

I'm not sure that can be said any more plainly. There will always be conflict when 2 equal rights come into direct conflict. The only reasonable response is to go with what I does less harm.

And a woman giving birth without additional stress is less harm than a transmidwife of either sex or gender being asked not to be that woman's HCP.

[quote Mascotte]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I do not want a man in my safe women's spaces. It's got nothing to do with "passing". It's a simple case of sex.[/quote]
I understand that. My question is basically how do you define "man"?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I do not want a man in my safe women's spaces. It's got nothing to do with "passing". It's a simple case of sex.

It is actually legal to discriminate on the basis of sex for certain positions OP. Something like a support worker in a female rape crisis centre, or a nurse performing a smear test. You would be perfectly legally within your rights to say "this is a female only job. Men, including transwomen, are excluded from applying for this position". You'd probably phrase it a bit more tactfully, but that's what the equality act says (and the GRA as well I think).

@FantaOra

There you go, OP has become a TERF by page 6 and doesn't want to give away women's rights.

Welcome to FWR!!!

State the facts. This journey only ever goes one way.

The hard, relentless campaigning of #NoDebate by transactivists had lead some people, like the OP, down an erroneous cul-de-sac.

No one who thinks women are human would agree to rapists in female prisons, men in women's sport, not being able to choose a woman to give you a smear test, etc.

Toilets are a bit of a red herring.

Personally, I think all the 'choke on my dick and die you bitch' responses to women maintaining their current rights should be enough of an answer to the toilet issue.