Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

What should have happened, when self ID was first suggested, was that women’s groups should’ve been consulted and listened to and a compromise should have been come to that protects women and trans people. That would have allied feminists, non feminists and trans people and their supporters.

Because safeguarding looks at worse case scenarios and works out what can be done to that happening.

What happened was women pointed out there was a massive loophole that would be very open to exploitation and the cries of “bigot” “transphobe” and the rest began.

Why did no one want to listen to women then? Same reason as no one listens now.

If the government suggested we do away with DBS checks in schools and replaces them with nothing but the applicants word, would anyone expect parents to be ok with that? And if they did say “well, hang on, what stops someone with a conviction for CSA applying?” And school staff replied “oh shut up! That wouldn’t happen. No one would go to work in a school for anything other than pure reasons with the children’s best interests at heart! What’s wrong with you bigots?” would anyone think that an acceptable response? And if not, why not?

I know I didn't. I didn't weep, hide myself away pretend it had not happened. I was angry, told people who he was, where he worked

I think that's amazing and more power to you.

It's an interesting area to have a discussion about and possibly one for another thread. Germaine Greer's views certainly stimulate a lot of discussion don't they? And very useful ones at that.

Ramblingwords

Abolutely fantastic post at 14:18:44

@Wondersense I understand and do agree that is really isn't that simple. I've heard her say the same words, but don't take it quite as literally. I hear her say we should hit out... and would if it were not for all sorts of societal expectations, over and above the biological imbalances.

As I said, I don't think I can explain how I hear it any more clearly than she says it. And there always seems to be a wide polemic in how she is heard! There's a thread or two about her at Hay on Wye. That got quite heated!

Regardless of how we each hear her, she does start quite invlved discussions - which can only be good!

@CuriousaboutSamphire You have a right to react to trauma your own way of course (I wasn't commenting on that). I have listened to extensive interviews with her. I was addressing more the expectation that some people have that women, who are physically weaker than men, should hit out at stronger, male aggressors. She made that expectation clear once on a panel at which she was speaking. My issue with that is that it's not that simple and having that expectation is unreasonable given the imbalance of strength that exists in that dynamic.

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair, I completely agree about my experience with one trans woman being just that - my experience with one amongst many and agree that my friend is likely to be perceived differently by other women. Those women might be intimidated because my friend looked like a large, muscular man wearing women’s clothes.
That is why I believe we need separate spaces for changing rooms, toilets and beds in hospitals.
As an ex-midwife, I handed the baby to Mum to discover the sex of her baby. Yes, I still observed myself and I take your point over my terminology/language.

This is why Germaine Greer's views annoy me. But she is right to raise the question!

The answer is, as you go on to say, what is important to understand.

I think that's one of the chasms between GG and a younger audience, or a feminism that isn't exactly as hers is. She isn't blaming the individual woman for not acting more aggressively. She is rudely and aggressively questioning the society that mould us that way!

A lot of what she says delves far deeper into the layers of oppression than most of us care to think. Like when she said that the trauma women who have been raped suffer is like her fear of a type of spider. She wasn't ridiculing women, far from it. Had anyone listened past that they would have heard her say that patriarchal society encourages women to be very frightened, usually of the wrong things.

She said something like post rape trauma is something that is dictated by the sufferer. And that is shaped by societal expectations of a woman raped. That we be ashamed, feel dirty, despoiled. Women are socialised into believing that and it deepens their trauma. We should choose not to internalise the stereotypical version of a woman raped.

I know I didn't. I didn't weep, hide myself away pretend it had not happened. I was angry, told people who he was, where he worked. I have no idea why but I refused to be traumatised by it... well, after the shock, the bruises and the immediate feelings of collapse, numbness. Maybe my age (a young Greenham Common era), we were an angry lot of young women!

But I know I have tried to epxlain that before, it doesn't seem to come out well!

Women are not human shields. HTH.

wonder

It’s interesting isn’t it, depressing, but interesting. Sorry you have seen it too.

Im mourning the loss of some great events within this circle that were, until recently bannered as By Women and Girls For Women and Girls. It was about using the shared love of sport to empower girls, and to show that behind the sportswomen persona there were some amazing women in their own right. And help with careers and life advice/mentoring.

It all fell apart when a TW asked (in a really Fucking irritating faux poor little me kind of way) if they would be welcome to come along. Yes, of course, we’re Not Bigots.

But then suddenly, we can’t use the words women or girls on anything. And when someone questioned how much this person might have to add to the discussion, given that they were socialised as male, and therefore maybe didn’t have any experience whatsoever of the issues this event had been set up to Adress (and maybe actually inviting a transman might be more appropriate)

Whoah the whole fucking thing kicked off.

It got hastily rebranded, no one was allowed to mention any of the issues that we had set out to Adress (TW have it harder, you with your CIS privilege). And became a supremely pointless exercise.

Who loses out? Women and Girls.

actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault

You're right it's not the fault of people genuinely just wanting to pee and get out quietly. However it still puts women at risk. We can't sacrifice women's safety for trans comfort or even for their safety. I'm not saying they shouldn't be safe, I'm saying their safety can't come at the expense of ours so another solution needs to be found (such as a third space for trans people).

The periods thing is quiet easy to understand - everyone who has a period is a woman, however not all women have periods, just like we teach kids 'all narcotics are drugs but not all drugs are narcotics' or 'all GP's are doctors but not all doctors are GP's' or 'all Chinese people are Asian but not all Asian people are chinese' - it's a pretty basic concept to grasp. But the majority of women do have periods at some point in their life. That's why the expense of sanitary products, period pain and period shaming are issues of sexism. Because women are disadvantaged because of our bodily functions. And that why when transwomen say 'I don't have a period so saying periods are a women's issue is excluding me' it makes women so angry. They are lucky to not have periods - to not face the hardship, discrimination and financial cost of having a period. So for them to then say women can't talk about them in feminist spaces because it doesn't include 'all woman' they are co-opting a women's space and essentially silencing our issues - asking us to sacrifice our safety and right to not be discriminated against for their comfort and inclusion.

Sharing a bathroom may well kill many women - especially is self id comes in whereby any man can enter a woman's space just by claiming he 'feels like a woman' having not actually made any changes to their presentation.

And why can't they #bekind to us? Why can't they recognise the trauma they inflict on many women by entering our safe spaces? Why can't they recognise that the fear they feel using the bathroom that doesn't align with their gender is the same fear many of us feel at the thought of a man in our safe spaces? So rather than trying to alleviate their fear at the expense of ours they should be campaigning for a bathroom situation where everyone feels safe?

#bekind goes both way, and many TRA's are overtly violent, sending rape and murder threats to any woman who challenges their ideology only to defend their sex based rights. I will be kind as in I will not sling personal insults or violent but I will defends my beliefs and argue my points with passion. I will not roll over and allow people to make me uncomfortable, silenced and scared in the name of 'kindness'

Thank you for staying OP

The pictures you have posted are the glamorous side of this movement, the ones they would like to portray.

One of the less glamorous sides* is the supporters who post abusive material and porn poses on the threads where JK Rowling is showing the pictures that children have made for The Ickabog, and 'Ms Cocktober' who posted a full frontal, on end, shot of their knowledge to Baroness Nicholson on Twitter.

I have no idea why the press choose to glorify the former and close their eyes to the latter, but it is what they do.

*Many less than glamorous sides are also available.

Men who transition into women won't ever need tampax.

It's not about people 'doing their business' it's more than that.

Give it a rest.

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair This is why Germaine Greer's views annoy me. She doesn't understand why women simply don't say 'fuck off' or stand on the foot or their aggressor. Well yes, that very good for her or others like her but when you're alone on a long dark street, or you end up having your teeth smashed in, that expectation is totally stupid. Not everyone is confrontational. Not everyone reacts with aggression when threatened. It's just another way to blame women later on for not acting 'right' way in a situation where they do not have the same physical power.

I think that your first pic is Buck Angel, who himself has openly said
‘Every time you attack biology you attack my transition. I was born female and transitioned using medical assistance to live fully “male” today. I am still biologically female and will forever be. It is transphobic to say biology doesnt exist.’

This is generally the view point supported on here, where’s the hate?

My old neighbour was a trans woman and we always treated one another with respect and I would have no problem with her using a women’s public toilet because I knew she had fully transitioned and felt she posed no danger to anyone

That's fine for you, but plenty of women couldn't then use that public toilet because of your friend being present. This is about all women and many are saying a clear 'no' to even your supposedly benign, respectful friend being in our spaces. Plenty of other women would also feel comfortable sharing public toilets with trans women because different people have different concerns. It's the more vulnerable women and those who downright don't want men in their spaces whose voices need listening to here.

Also, could someone explain why I, a woman assigned the female sex at birth and happy with that, is now often referred to as a cis woman?

It's supposed to make you feel as if you possess privilege (being female) over a vulnerable group. It's supposed to make you feel guilt and shame and to willingly open the door to your rights being removed. And you weren't assigned the female sex at birth. Midwives don't stand there wielding clipboards, making decisions about sex depending on what mood they're in that day or who has bribed them. Sex is observed. In a tiny (really tiny) number of cases people are intersex and that observation is a little more complicated or even wrong but it is not the norm. That has nothing to do with the trans issue.

I will also say though. Regarding the transphobic comments. When I was blinded by the desire to protect my ex because he brainwashed me into seeing him as vulnerable I took a lot of the language here very personally and felt victimised myself.

But that's just part of the reality twisting these people inflict on you.

@odense I'm just on the periphery with this but this matches the online discourse that I've been seeing. There's a particular kind of '1 2 3, back to me' tone to it. It is simply not enough to be treated nicely (whatever that entails). There is an expectation of total submission with regards to your own ideology or thinking. It's never enough.

You know, it reminds me a lot of where I used to work many years ago. Good behaviour, good work was never enough. They needed to feel in utter control of you and your thoughts, and if they didn't feel they had that, you were a target.

And a sign WILL stop my ex because he TOLD me he would not do that as a man because he knows he would be seen as being predatory

*Firstly dont call me ignorant - I am not proclaiming anything

secondly, if someone is out to get you, having a sign on a door will not stop them*

Then by your own argument, TW are no safer in womens toilets than they are mens...

On another thread, a poster referred to some people having the “privilege of confidence“ to deal with situations that others might find challenging. This confidence might be due to personality, upbringing, life experience, access to therapy to deal with issues, or many other factors.

I would just add to that - there are women who are walking around thinking they have confidence and power who are talking about feeling comfortable sharing spaces with men. They feel able to assert themselves. Great, more power to them. The more of them the better. A lot of those women are just blissfully ignorant in terms of lived experience, though, as to how they don't actually possess the privilege they think they do. Not when it comes down to it. I'm sure a lot of other women could tell them something about how it only took one incident of male aggression or sexual violence to show them how very vulnerable they actually were as females. I wouldn't wish that knowledge on anyone but it didn't take very much to shatter my feeling of being safe in the world.

Can I point out regarding suicide figures.

There arent actually official numbers. The kind of surveys that have been done have been based on information taken at face value.

My ex will tell them hes made several suicide attempts. Hes never made a single one.

We dont have the figures to even guess at what the suicide rate is compared to the rest of the population.

Another one chipping in to,say thank you for staying OP.

I had exactness same views as you up until a couple of years ago, till I started to feel uncomfortable about the takeover in my community. I had a large sport—related online friendship group consisting primarily of lesbians, bi women and a number of trans men. a few nice trans women asked to join, well, of course, why not TWAW, after all.

But then slowly, stealthily , it was somehow more about them and their struggles. All the gay and NB women gathered round, sympathetically. But it wasn’t enough, it was never quite enough, they HAD rights donchaknow. And if anyone questioned it, SHUT UP TERF TWAW. (Never TMAM, BTW, notice that?)

I started to question why we weren’t allowed to question anything. Part of,my job out in the real world involves balancing a lot of conflicting needs and rights. You do that by debate, discussion and evidence. Yet here, where there was obviously a clash of needs and requirements, one group was permitted to shout another down.

Googled, found this forum and was radicalised by Mumsnet.

Please stick around.

I think from reading the thread there are two things that I haven't seen in detail which are important.

We have been sharing facilities for years with the trans community partly because for years the people we have shared with were quite obviously people who had gender dysmorphia and just wanted go live life quietly in the body they always felt they should have had but had no interest in trying to "take" from us, or "erase" us they just wanted to live next to us and with us and we were quite happy to have them with us, these were brave transwomen and men who had no interest in being more important than us (and we weren't more important than them) they were just people as were we who shared a world as best we could.

The problems came relatively recently when other people hi jacked the community for imo reasons other than being trans (quite often for abusive or fetashist reasons) they then weaponised the label trans so when we felt unsafe or shared that we were uncomfortable with certain behaviours or that we were unwilling for our sex based rights to be relegated/completely eroded or for our terms to be erased etc we had the terms transphobic or terf or other insults hurled at as and were given no way to engage and discuss any options for all (trans ,men,women or other etc) of us to live safely and comfortably together with all of our many different needs being met in society.

And the other point which very rarely even gets mentioned never mind discussed are why is it always women that are the discussion and our terms and our spaces, why is it never men's spaces or terms. Why is it assumed that it is women that will be the ones to compromise give up everything while nothing is expected of men or their spaces.

It's complicated but there must be a way for us all to have our needs and rights accommodated without one group trampling another. Or for it to be expected and assumed that one group is being hateful for not feeling it's ok for their rights to be the ones that disappear.

OP did you read about the trans woman that sexually assaulted a ten year old girl in the female toilets in a Scottish supermarket?

The trans women wouldn’t have been noticed from a far going in to the toilets but a man would of and been challenged.

Did you read about the trans woman from Blackpool who downloaded 80,000 indecent images of children and it’s actually goes down as a female crime which makes real statistics wrong.

Have you read about convicted trans women sex offenders who then go on to sexually assault female prisoners?

I have never ever seen a transphobic post on MN. I’ve only seen posts saying you can not physically change sex and that women need protected spaces from men. Which is true.