Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

Why are public toilets called "bathrooms " on threads about transsexual issues?

Imported terminology (along with the imported gender ideology). The US is quite a euphemistic culture - they say "tidbit" rather than "titbit", and they invented the word "rooster" to replace "cock" in the animal sense, to avoid embarrassment.

I’ve been lurking on the gender critical threads, or what you perceive to be the hate threads, for a while. From my lurking, I would argue that the gender critical posters do not pose anything hateful but rather a simple question or statement of their lived experience. The hateful comments come from the TRA who cannot answer those questions or dislike that lived experience. TRA will then claim the gender critical feminists are dismissing trans people’s lived experience. Which is ironic.

I know these will have been discussed throughout the thread already but I’m going to add my personal examples and how it is something a trans woman has not, and will never, experience. Throughout my career, I have had numerous job interviews. These have been with a panel of men only, women only and mixed. Most of the panels that have included men have usually included questions about my personal circumstances, whether I have any caring responsibilities, whether I have a partner. You see, I’m a woman of child bearing age. In panels of women only I have never been asked any questions about my personal life as it simply isn’t relevant to my capabilities in doing my job. I have taken my rings off for job interviews, or a few days before to let the natural indentations fade. On the other hand, my husband was encouraged to include the fact that he was married in a promotion interview because it made him look settled and a safe bet. A trans woman, particularly one that has established their career before transitioning, does not face that particular workplace discrimination. I work in a male dominated industry, I was doing a project in which a female director had told males colleagues under her to report something to me every day. They ignored her, didn’t send me the information and when I questioned it, mansplained to me how wrong I’d got it. No apology when I provided evidence to prove that all of them were wrong. A trans woman might be taken less seriously than a male counterpart but they are still going to be taken more seriously than a female. A trans woman will have spent some time living as a boy and being seen by society as a boy. They won’t have been called bossy and doubted themselves because bossy is a negative word we attach to women and girls to undermine them. They’ll have been led to believe that they are better at maths and science because they have a Y chromosome. Trans people do face workplace discrimination but it is completely different to the workplace discrimination of women. They are two separate fights.

Bathrooms isn’t about stopping trans people using those spaces but rather men who will use the trans to legitimately access those spaces. When I was 18, I was on a night out with friends and went to the bathroom by myself. As I was washing my hands, a drunk man came into the ladies. He informed me that I was in the wrong bathroom. I told him I wasn’t, how many men’s toilets had tampons machines? He looked around and seemingly agreed with my assessment but then told me he wasn’t going to go to the men’s bathroom. He then clocked my appearance, dressed up for a night out I had a low cut top on. Even drunk, his glare made me uncomfortable. He asked me if I’d like to get a drink after he’d finished and I replied no, thank you. He was still in the bathroom entrance and blocking the door. He’s hammered but I’m in heels, so my odds of escape aren’t increased. He continues to make inappropriate comments to me, leering. Fortunately, I think his pissed state and need to use the bathroom trumped his interest in me and I made a beeline out of there, dragging my friends from the bar to find a new place. The noise in the bar was loud but if he had attacked, I would have to scream as loud as I could and hope that someone in the corridor to the toilets heard. Obviously these men will always find a way to get access to female only spaces if they want. The difference then would have been that on someone else or the bar staff upon finding him in the ladies, he’d have been thrown out. Now, he could simply state that he was a trans woman. Then I’d be the hysterical women scared off a sexual assault from a trans woman that obviously wouldn’t harm anyone. Let’s make no mistake, this predator isn’t a trans woman and nor is my comment saying that trans people are predators but predators can use that excuse. Which inevitably reflects badly on the trans community as they are being unfairly repressed by predators. By respecting single sex spaces, you are actually making sure that the trans community isn’t seen as predatory and men aren’t given a free pass by claiming to be something they aren’t.

I have no hate for trans people. However, I think it’s trans women that are shouting the loudest, when actually it’s trans men that need the most protection. Trans men have female biology, they will typically smaller, slower and not as physically strong as men but using men’s spaces. A trans woman still has the strength, speed and height advantage over women. Even a trans woman that doesn’t pass is going to be at less risk than a trans man. A trans man who doesn’t look masculine enough is at a very real risk from men and not just in men’s spaces, in all spaces. Like women. Trans men will have doctors minimising their female medical problems, telling their periods are no big deal when actually they could be suffering with endometriosis. In conjunction with possibly being told their gender dysphoria is in their head. Trans men will face workplace discriminations of being a woman and then being trans. Yet the only narrative that is important is that trans women are women. Trans men by the virtue of being raised a woman for however short a time are not in the habitat of shouting loudest to get what they want. Creating a third gender neutral space would be in the interest of trans men (with trans women also benefitting) but trans women don’t want that and there in lies the problem.

Why are public toilets called "bathrooms " on threads about transsexual issues?

so, now you've been suitably educated and understand the position better, are you going to go on twitter and challenge the TRA on there about why they hate women so much? I get very offended at being accused of being transphobic because I have concerns around the misuse of legislation and the erosion of women's spaces. None of the information presented on here is new, yet you decided to throw 'transphobic' around without any consideration of whether it was accurate or not. And if you're not going to challenge the TRAs, and the 'suck my lady dick' commentators, ask yourself why not, and then think very hard about which is the hate group here.

You've had some excellent responses OP.

Much fairer, much more welcoming and far more articulate than I've had on Twitter for asking a mere question as to what benefit women and girls get from opening our facilities and sports to males. I got sent dick pictures and an offer (like JK has had) about removing my ovaries. Oh, and the obligatory T*RF.

@Igbee, your post is brilliant. Thank you

Absolutely no hatred from me either for trans women. I acknowledge their need for a safe space. I have a problem with breast feeding my baby in what I assume to be a women only space (some of us still don't want to do this in front of men), or standing half dressed in a ladies toilet desperately trying to get period stains out of my clothing. It isn't as trivial as who's got what in the cubicle next to you. I really don't mind fully trans women using ladies toilets. Womens prisons, refuges and and sports teams are another matter.

I remember in the 90s watching a Channel Four documentary about transsexuals and I couldn't understand how these men could possibly believe they were women in men's bodies. What does it mean to "feel like" a woman or "feel like" a man?

In her book Shrier described how the California board of education encourages pre-school teachers to ask kids to make lists of colours/toys/activities preferred by boys and girls respectively. It all reinforces gender stereotypes. In due course, kids are taught that loads of people are born in the wrong bodies and encouraged to believe that it's so common that it may well be true of them too.
Of course, that's the US, but what happens there usually happens here sooner or later. Transgender Trend did a report on UK RSE teaching which was pretty worrying.

Gender is TOTAL bollocks. This ideology cements stereotypes as law and erases biological reality. It’s an absolute travesty. We are all worthy of protection.
Replacing sex with ‘gender’ in legal terms cannot be allowed to happen, whatever the clearly stated aims of Stonewall and the silent back room deals of PfC.

NotMyTimes- we had a few years of people like Ed Miliband wearing a “This is What a Feminist Looks Like” t shirt, now we’ve moved on. There are many lovely, kind people who want to support those who need it, but have no real commitment to any single cause. So now people are tweeting #BLM and #TransRights because there’s a big focus on those right now. This isn’t to say those people are bad, but they will move on when the next cause comes in. Because they are doing it to be kind and black lives DO matter, just as trans rights are human rights. But if next year the media is all over disability rights, for example, that’s what the sloganistas will hop on over to.

I want to live in a society where beautiful feminine men and unapologetically unfeminine women can live their lives without being abused or laughed at, because society is hard on those who aren’t gender conforming.
I also want a society where children are not encouraged to believe that their sexed bodies are wrong because of a ‘mismatched’ personality, where we aren’t socialised into poisonous gender roles from a young age.*.

I love this @Igbee. This is what society should be aiming for. Gender is complete bollocks isn’t it.

My sons both cross the road if they find themselves following a lone woman down a dark or lonely street.

They know they represent zero risk to the woman. But they know she doesn't know that, and that's what matters.

Men who identify as women - if they actually had empathy for women - would surely go to great pains not to scare or intimidate them? The lovely Miranda Yardley, a tall transsexual, uses male facilities, because Miranda identifies with us. Would that more would follow his example (he goes by male pronouns, MNHQ).

I know it sounds fantastical. It does doesn't it?

But you only have to be on a thread where it happens overnight to realise how jolly determined they are!

Sad really. But, kelcat that is also why there are words/terms that are banned only on FWR and why there are a set of additional rules for posting here. They hurt, to be honest. You have to twist what tyou want to say until it almost loses all sense. But it is pointles to rail against it as without those additional measures MNHQ couldn't say, to anyone who asks, "Look how strict we moderate the topic" and we know Justine has to say such twaddle quite regularly, she occasionally clarifies things and it is quite scary to see just how far some TRA actions push seemingly sensible people!

@Wearywithteens

I agree.

I wish we could take the same stance as the BLM movement. It's not my job to educate you.

It's not my job to educate men on the issues of the sexism and the patriarchy when they are the perpetrators of these issues and I am busy and exhausted already fighting against them every single day.

The sad thing is that many women's issues aren't taken seriously in the way that issues of race have been recently. It took hundreds of unjust murders of black people for their issues to finally get recognition and for people to realise they need to educate themselves and it's not the job of the oppressed to educate you about their oppression. I wonder how many women will have to die for sexism to gain the same deserved mass attention?

It concerns me when people blithely talk about removing someone else's rights in law, and show they don't really understand how laws are formulated.

You can't just remove 'sex' as a protected class from the Equality Act;

• it also affects numerous other pieces of legislation which have to be rewritten.
• it creates a legal precedent.
• it has real life consequenses for individuals that you don't care about.

The EA was written to protect groups of people who are vulnerable. You want to remove that protection for one group and you also want to pretend that no one will be harmed.

Well we wont let you. If you fight to remove the EA we will hold each and every one of you accountable.

kelcat, just as an additional point on deletions as you wander round the board (and please do) - you will see many threads where post deletions have taken place. Do not assume that these were transphobic hate posts by regular mn posters. We receive a large number of ‘visitors’ from twitter who post in a deliberately transphobic or goady way to harvest screenshots from ‘mumsnetters’ to prove the site is ‘transphobic’. It’s done very quickly, and often late at night when they know the moderators are not working. It’s a deliberate tactic used to silence the many ferociously intelligent protectors of women’s rights that post here, against a backdrop of trying to shut us down. They go after mn advertisers and force them to drop advertising contracts as a way of exerting financial pressure on the owners to close down the feminism chat board.
The hatred against women trying to protect sex based rights is very real. I know it sounds fantastical. Just don’t assume that deletions are proof of transphobia.
Welcome to the board

Women are not human shields. HTH.

This. It's also a question of privacy and dignity. People seem determined that if they personally don't think there is a good reason for it, other women shouldn't expect it. No.

Hi OP, I’m sorry you perceived there to be hate here, but I think so many previous posters have made some fantastic points and I’m glad you’re examining them.
I am coming from the perspective of a woman who experienced gender dysphoria as a teen. I know well what it’s like to get aggression, disgust and confusion when you present as masculine with a woman’s body, even from family, and how much that hurts.
I know well the feeling of utter ‘wrongness’ living in a repulsive expansive female body when in my head I was an entirely different person.
I was desperate to just blend in, to pass as a boy. Of course, I didn’t.

I count myself incredibly lucky that I didn’t browse the internet or know anyone who felt similar. I didn’t know anything, really, about anything, so I didn’t even consider myself trans at the time. If I were a teen now, I would only have to take one look at my desperate-to-pass, chest-binding self and obviously come to that conclusion, but I think it would have been actively harmful for an already miserable teenager, to identify out of reality. What I needed was someone to show me clearly that femininity is not the same as womanliness.

It was only a couple of years ago, when I first read a blog about detransitioning after ROGD that I recognised myself in those young women, forever changed by the treatment they’d gone through.
I’m in my 30s now and butch as anything. Ended up bisexual, now in a relationship with a man. Dressing up in ‘female’ clothes feels like wearing drag to me, but I am 100% unequivocally a woman. I’ve now had the privilege to birth children and feed them using my once-loathed breasts. It has been one of the most precious human experiences of my life, even with all the attendant female issues of pain and bodily change. The thought of scores of young girls undergoing hysterectomies, mastectomies, never even having this choice, makes me feel sick. When I was dysphoric, I felt sure I didn’t want kids.

For anyone who feels like I did, reading this- I think the Trans umbrella can be a prison. ‘Gender’ is bollocks. You will never change your biology; if you go down the medical route you will be a lifelong medical patient, dependent on other people’s affirmation for your happiness.
I also realise now that self hatred and self involvement took precious time away from examining other vital issues, e.g. climate change and stunted my involvement in life.

It took a long time for me to overcome dysphoria, accept messy biological reality and feel at peace in my body. It’s far from perfect, but I care about it. Most importantly, I feel like I ‘am’ my body.
I want this peace and acceptance of reality for other people experiencing dysphoria, but this is deemed akin to conversion therapy. I don’t want to stop people from expressing their gender identity (cynical read: personality and fashion sense because I don’t believe in an innate gendered self) whilst keeping our society segregated on the basis of the reality of our sexed bodies, with a third space available for any whose safety and dignity is compromised by using traditionally male or female facilities.
I want to live in a society where beautiful feminine men and unapologetically unfeminine women can live their lives without being abused or laughed at, because society is hard on those who aren’t gender conforming.
I also want a society where children are not encouraged to believe that their sexed bodies are wrong because of a ‘mismatched’ personality, where we aren’t socialised into poisonous gender roles from a young age.
Sterility, lifelong medication, cutting off healthy tissue is not a sane outcome for people who feel like I did and we are now in the warped position where society tells us we are bigoted and on the wrong side of history for expressing this view.
I feel like Transgender theory is the ally of sexism, that it creates and Us vs. Them dichotomy and a whole load of new boxes to put people into, when really we should be smashing the boxes.
I don’t know what the answer is, but divisions of ‘Cis’ and ‘Trans’, affirmation and medical intervention can’t be it for the majority; they just can’t.

secondly, if someone is out to get you, having a sign on a door will not stop them.

Yes I heard you the first time, and my comment stands. You are proclaiming about other people's lived experiences of the sanctuary female only spaces sometimes provide from specific or random males. Please stop it, you don't know what you're talking about.

Thank you for staying OP. It's made a welcome change.

You may be interested in this. It's a long read, (and from the USA), but every single point she raises is relevant to the situation in this country:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200702034115/genderheretics.org/index.php/2020/07/01/i-hit-peaktrans-by-treating-transgender-sex-offenders/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200702034115/genderheretics.org/index.php/2020/07/01/i-hit-peaktrans-by-treating-transgender-sex-offenders/

To me it is also an incredibly unthinking and stigmatising approach to mental health issues, to say that suicide ideation is so utterly horrifying that almost anything should be attempted if it comes up, and that MH problems are so unusual and weird. I've always understood that Anerican mental health services arent great - I could easily be wrong and tbh in the UK they are fairly crap too due to relentless cuts and stigmatising as well. But fleeting thoughts of suicide are certainly really really common and not a reason to think that someone's entire physical being is somehow abnormal. I say this having lost my husband to suicide; I don't underestimate the issue.

There arent actually official numbers. The kind of surveys that have been done have been based on information taken at face value.

I actually think you could look at all sorts of different populations and find high rates of suicidal ideation to be honest, if you really looked for them. I mean vets and dentists kill themselves in quite high numbers, don't they? Where is the discussion about their vulnerabilities?

Many many teens without gender dysphoria probably have at least some experience of having moments of contemplating dying because it's a turbulent time and they're influenced by their peers and the media and suicide is glamourised. I don't think it necessarily means very much, I'm afraid, even if lots of teens with gender dysphoria do feel suicidal, although obviously any teenager who has persistent bleak thoughts and is unhappy deserves lots of support and input.

I was in hospital a lot as a child. I remember a night when 2 friends were both brought in having separately attempted suicide. Both were sitting laughing together on a bed the morning after and having been patched up were sent home with no further action deemed necessary. They no doubt both had moments of feeling pretty bad that they'd each taken an overdose but the hospital had the attitude of, we see this a lot, it's something teens do, it's a contagious thing and not necessarily reflective of the fact those teens are struggling with anything serious. Teenagers do stupid or melodramatic things, unfortunately.

It doesn't change my view that the very rare cases of severe gender dysphoria need much better treatment and compassion but you don't change society because one group is threatening suicide if they don't get their way.