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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

367 replies

Igneococcus · 03/07/2020 09:17

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

OP posts:
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8
KarenKuruma · 05/07/2020 01:24

Well therein is a part of the problem - Karen in US may well be white 30-40 and a middle class soccer-mom-who-complains, but Karen in the UK is IME white in a broader 20-50ish age, and frequently working class and working herself in Asda.

First example that pops into my head - the barmaid in Shameless' name was Karen.

Goosefoot · 05/07/2020 01:19

@2Rebecca

Agree the Karen think was classist not racist. It was another way of calling someone a chav. All these othering names are nasty
Is chav meant to be WC? I think of Karen as middle class. We don't use chav in Canada though so I'm not up on the nuances.
2Rebecca · 04/07/2020 23:32

All this identity politics is full of stereotypes. Black good white bad, this class good that class bad, young good boomer bad. Left good right bad. Privilege poker and splitting. People are people

2Rebecca · 04/07/2020 23:28

Agree the Karen think was classist not racist. It was another way of calling someone a chav. All these othering names are nasty

Goosefoot · 04/07/2020 23:18

@merrymouse

Maybe this Catherine Tate character is similar to the 'Karen' caricature in the US?

Perhaps part of the issue is that our perceptions of class and its influence are very different in the UK. Maybe if 'Karen' was called something different and was shouting at a shop assistant to hurry up because her 4 wheel drive was parked on a double yellow and she need to get her children to Mandarin classes we would 'get it'?

However, for me, 'Karen' is a harassed nurse of 52 living in Ayrshire, and I want her to be able to speak to the manager, because her concerns are usually ignored.

Yeah, I think in terms of its origins, the person it is describing is closest to a sort of soccer mom, but the emphasis is more on how the individual treats people like retail workers. So someone with a certain amount of monetary power in terms of consumer shopping, so probably not too young, with a family, very middle class, who is entitled with regard to how they treat low-paid employees in places like the grocery store or M&S.

Somehow it came to be applied to any women of that age and class who had a certain look, or whho the speaker thought was a bit of an old fogey.

While the original characterisation wasn't particularly nice I think it's probably true that a lot of people recognise the type of person it was referring to, and it's easy to imagine some foot-sore harassed worker at the supermarket thinking it about customer. Whereas the way it is used now, 99% of the time it doesn't even make any sense and you don't really know what they are trying to say.

Left to itself it would probably die out quickly because its no longer a useful shorthand for anyone.

Somehow it widened out

MrGHardy · 04/07/2020 19:24

Absolute nonsense, for every one white woman it is used for appropriately, there's a dozen it is used for completely inappropriately for no other reason than cheap entertainment on women's behalf. Just like with spamming "ok boomer" it is nothing but childish online behavior.

JinnyTheWitch · 04/07/2020 19:19

To vary up my daily diet of the usual SM and online content, I've been looking at stuff like Spiked

www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/25/the-hatred-for-karens-is-out-of-control/

Goosefoot · 04/07/2020 16:14

@nellodee

The "speak to the manager" was the original. We can see from News articles like this one, globalnews.ca/news/6986111/central-park-karen-amy-cooper-dog/ which says :

Melody Cooper described Amy on Twitter as a “Karen,” an internet slang term for an annoying, middle-aged white woman who wants to share her trivial complaints with someone in authority (often a manager). The term has been around for a few years, but it’s become more common during the novel coronavirus pandemic as a shorthand for ignorant and abrasive white women.

Many of Amy Cooper’s critics called her a “racist Karen” for taking her complaints to the police and not a manager. They also compared the incident to past cases of racial injustice in which white women falsely accused Black men of crimes.

Here's the thread:

twitter.com/melodymcooper/status/1264965252866641920

So yes. A term for "ignorant and abrasive white women". Or, if you want, any woman you don't want to fuck and do want to shut up.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people continue to insist it was always about race in the US. That' just not where it originated.

These things grow in their own way of course, and IMO Karen is a bit like Boomer, it's become so broad it's basically meaningless now.

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 16:13

OTOH I'm happy to agree that all white people in USA UK etc have structural privilege over all black people and as a white woman I have no idea of how it is.

While men rarely make this statement when it comes to women.

In fact plenty believe they know what we are, how we think, what we like, what we 'really mean' when we speak, better than we do. And that's men in general not referring in any way to trans people.

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 16:10

Agree but don't know how that fits with men as a class/ namalt ...

AllWashedOut · 04/07/2020 16:09

For those that say suck it up, I can see that 'Karen' is just a slur. But the slur comes from the so-called wokes...yep, those who hate stereotypes. 'Karen' is a stereotype (justified or not) that seeks to harm and humiliate. It is that I object to more than anything. Call people out for who they are, their terrible acts, the awful things they say. Don't lump people together under some shared characteristics and tar them all with the same brush. We all lose that way.

merrymouse · 04/07/2020 15:46

Maybe this Catherine Tate character is similar to the 'Karen' caricature in the US?

Perhaps part of the issue is that our perceptions of class and its influence are very different in the UK. Maybe if 'Karen' was called something different and was shouting at a shop assistant to hurry up because her 4 wheel drive was parked on a double yellow and she need to get her children to Mandarin classes we would 'get it'?

However, for me, 'Karen' is a harassed nurse of 52 living in Ayrshire, and I want her to be able to speak to the manager, because her concerns are usually ignored.

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 15:30

I'm not going to message you I don't PM on MN I prefer to discuss on threads.

nellodee · 04/07/2020 15:30

The incident with Amy Cooper in the park took place on May 25th 2020.
Here are screen shots from an image search on the phrase "Karen meme", with results ONLY up to the end of March 2020.

"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"
ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 15:29

I'm not posting like it's a victory.

I want you to straightforwardly answer one question before you go.

Do you think I'm an NF type.

Just that 1 question.

Pelleas · 04/07/2020 15:28

using curse words

Possibly another cultural difference rearing its head - I think we swear a lot more in Britain!

HannaYeah · 04/07/2020 15:25

@ShinyFootball

By the way, you are welcome to message me and I’ll respond when I can but I likely won’t see it today.

You can post a bunch of times again acting like it’s a victory for you to have run me off the or that I don’t have a response but it’s a actually a holiday here and I do have other things to do.

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 15:24

Oh lol I'm a woman hater now as well. Ties in with my NF tendencies well though.

Hmm
ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 15:22

So you aren't going to confirm if you think I'm some kind of NF type.

Silence I'm guessing means yes you think so and you said as much in your post.

That is one hell of an accusation to make to a stranger when they point out that the USA and UK are not the same cultures and have different histories and reference points.

nellodee · 04/07/2020 15:21

The "speak to the manager" was the original. We can see from News articles like this one, globalnews.ca/news/6986111/central-park-karen-amy-cooper-dog/ which says :

Melody Cooper described Amy on Twitter as a “Karen,” an internet slang term for an annoying, middle-aged white woman who wants to share her trivial complaints with someone in authority (often a manager). The term has been around for a few years, but it’s become more common during the novel coronavirus pandemic as a shorthand for ignorant and abrasive white women.

Many of Amy Cooper’s critics called her a “racist Karen” for taking her complaints to the police and not a manager. They also compared the incident to past cases of racial injustice in which white women falsely accused Black men of crimes.

Here's the thread:

twitter.com/melodymcooper/status/1264965252866641920

So yes. A term for "ignorant and abrasive white women". Or, if you want, any woman you don't want to fuck and do want to shut up.

HannaYeah · 04/07/2020 15:19

No answer because I haven’t been online again until now.

I think your post responding to what I said, with all caps, using curse words, basically trying to shut me up because I’m not from UK was quite shitty.

I was only posting some context about my own perspective that Karen was not originally about white racist women. Even now it’s used as a blanket thing about an annoying stereotype always asking for the manager or authorities, not specially only related to racism.

I only skimmed all the other posts between now. Almost missed my entire point (as restated in the paragraph above).

I’ll just not post on this thread again since I only posted once, am not from UK, don’t feel welcome on it now. I think many women don’t support women and yes, you are definitely giving me that vibe.

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 15:08

No answer I see.

Well in that case I'm popping off for a bit too watch an old screwdriver vid and do a bit of marching Hmm

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 14:54

Yes it's a bit odd.

Hanna I want you to give me a straight answer as to whether you genuinely believe I'm an NF type person.

MorrisZapp · 04/07/2020 14:51

Dominance over others? What on earth?

ShinyFootball · 04/07/2020 14:45

Also why are you assuming I'm responding to you?

I just had a quick squiz and you've only posted once, ages ago.

There were some more recent posts that were incredulous that we didn't know what the shaniqa thing was.

Be straightforward.

Do you think I'm am NF type person or what. You've as good as said it.

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