"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

Women cry to get their own way or get out of trouble is one of the oldest man made myths.
It dehumanizes women into cynical manipulative con artists with no genuine feelings.
howitworks.png

Ikeairgin,
Could you explain the "White women's tears" please?
I'm a US citizen and understand that to be a term used by incel and MRA types. No?

I am POC and I’m still saying it - why are women being targeted when men are quite clearly the ones perpertrating the actual violence?

Sorry; you use my abuser's language, I switch off (to listen to black voices that don't use that language).

Still rather have somebody tell me to 'shut up' than somebody phone the police and try and get me shot like white women keep doing.

I don't 'shut up' for anyone, man, child, woman. That's abusive, anti-woman language.

Bit disappointed to see so many posters crying "what about the men?" when asked to check their privilege.

These same posters are usually so dismissive of whataboutery when the shoe is on the other foot and they're playing the victim. Odd to see it become their first line of defence when the tables are turned. Also, all the attempts to try and downplay/distance themselves from the problem - "UK isn't the same as the US" etc.

There are undoubtedly some differences but when POC are telling you there's a problem you should shut up and listen. Otherwise you're just the same as blokes who try and mansplain that there's no patriarchy/inequality etc.

Also ....

He lives here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales

Nope - none of the Welsh - he lives in a little enclave of fellow expats who have all lived abroad and share similar viewpoints. He'd have a hernia if he lived where I do.

I'm not stereotyping them I've met them

But I admit that I didn't make that clear in my post

"thankfully he lives in west Wales - a long way away and full of his type of people.

I think that anything that casually stereotypes any person, on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful"

Bit of an stereotypical view of welsh people there though!

Well I found that Time advert to be really educational - I have a sister living in the US and I've been more and more perplexed about some of the things that she's been talking about on Facebook and one of the phrases that she used "white women's tears" totally bamboozled me - so I am grateful to be able to read an article that laid out the complete history and context of what's being said and referred to on twatter and other sm networks.

I'm bothered about the casual name calling and calling out that goes on these days, having worked in further education, had a heavy hand in safeguarding and been working in Birmingham you can see that I have had to examine my bias, concious and unconcous .

Especially since I grew up in the middle east as an expat - my father having been an engineer out there. He's the most racist stereotyping pale and stale male that you are likely to meet - he's alf garnet on steroids, thankfully he lives in west Wales - a long way away and full of his type of people.

I think that anything that casually stereotypes any person, on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful

I also think that if a person says they are not racist, then they are just not yet aware of their biases. I am aware of some of mine and I am careful to test and check my actions and conciously try and mitigate/ensure that I am as fair as possible, call out other people and think before I engage my mouth - it's the least that a white middle class middle adged person should do, given that I have chosen to live in a very diverse area of a diverse city (Because I grew up in a similar area, it feels a lot more like home here than the suburb we moved from)

But I digress, and I'm merailing, sorry.

I agree with what others have said - the context that Karen is used for in the US is not the same as the UK and to lump them in together is lazy at best disingenious af and at worst just trying to "gotcha" people who happen to be white on a UK website to screengrab or whatever.

It all got started back in 2005 with a bit by comedian Dane Cook, about “Karen” the friend nobody likes, he did go on in the same bit to showcase the male version “Brian”.

From there the name “Karen” got attached to the “I’d like to speak to the manager haircut” meme. Now of course it’s evolved the racial element.

The original bit was essentially a piece of observational comedy about how we are all ultimately bullies, and unfortunately and perhaps ironically rather than prompting a layer of self reflection it’s become something of a marker on who it is socially acceptable for us to bully.

Note in the original bit it is not explained why either Karen nor Brian should be the target of such vitriol.

If anything, as the US meaning with its racist element was the original,

No, the original meme on reddit or whatever doesn't appear to have anything specifically to do with racism. I wasn't even aware of that interpretation until the last couple of months because I'd just seen it used to criticise women for having opinions. I'll continue to call it out as a misogynistic slur, much like "terf", when it's used by men to put down women (I've seen it used by men to women of all races) simply for speaking up.

Like many things appropriated from the US, the Karen meme has ended up meaning something very different in the UK.

Saying one interpretation is wrong and the other correct, is just silly. If anything, as the US meaning with its racist element was the original, the UK interpretation could be said to be incorrect.

I've been having this very same discussion with some American friends, who were bemused by my take on the Karen meme. Once the misunderstanding was cleared up, we were able to continue the discussion with clarity.

Where is the name for super entitled nasty older men?

I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know that the virtuous are now going after the ‘wrong’ type of gay...

twitter.com/themendozawoman/status/1279431474408837120?s=21

When I worked in retail there were some women who would insist on returning obviously used items

And a fair number of really creepy men

The last time I was in a restaurant the person who was insisting on having stuff taken off the bill and being a total arsehole was a man maybe about 70

Where's the name for creepy men? Dave? So every woman could say oh there was a man at the thing he was a right Dave, meaning creepy/ sexually inappropriate. How would all the Daves feel about that?

Where is the name for super entitled nasty older men?

I’ve worked in bookstores too and I definitely recognise the Karen type (the US version). The issue is that the blurring of the distinction between being one of those arrogant, entitled and demanding types, and being strong and confident and assertive, standing up for yourself, and not taking any shit. It seems to me that misogynists are now using “Karen” to mock/threaten/punish/silence the latter as well as the former.

Well off lad, it should say.

Need, maybe not. But is there anything wrong with it if we say about a feckless young well of lad who is rather dim and can't keep his trousers buttoned "well, he's a real Tom Jones?"

Bookstore patrons are very evenly mixed by sex IME, I suspect the Karen thing comes out of grocery or clothing retail which are heavily dominated by women customers.

I still don't feel a need to have a name for 'those' type of men nor an urge to diminish all male voices by screaming 'OK Theodore' or whatever name I might think sums up blokes who run uni departments.

I've worked bookstore retail and honestly? Academic 'intellectual' men are the worst in that context. Very self important. I can imagine how in times past, they would have treated their maids like part of the furniture.

Women at least tend to have manners.

Yeah, I think it makes sense if you are talking about a "type" that is entitled and condescending, it would resonate with anyone who feels entitled and condescended to. I can imagine it would resonate with WC women in general too, as well as retail workers.

It's true generally I think that we encounter these types of people that we sort of recognise - some of them get named after literary associations for example like a person who's a real Gragrind.

The thing with Karen is it's kind of used not just about people who behave a certain way, but to disparage a whole group of people of a certain age and sex. And guess what, middle aged, middle class women with certain haircuts are not all like that.

If you have ever watched, and thought about, the way some white women talk to Black women in public you will immediately understand why Black women use the term Karen among themselves.
The fact that it has been appropriated by misogynists is unfortunate but inevitable, because misogynists appropriate everything.

Maybe that is very USian of me, but I understood what was meant the first time I heard it in context.

The name isn't common in Canada in the right demographic either, it's older than the American one it seems. I don't know anyone near my age called Karen, it's more my mother's age, so senior citizen.