Non uniform at school - provocative clothing.

I never understood why wearing trousers slung so low they were falling off and the more recent fashion of trousers so tight their bulge shows were acceptable for boys but girls had to hide their shoulders in 100F 38C weather.

It's been particularly bad the last few years, the vision given to young women of attractive fashionable women has been hyper-sexualised to a starling degree, and it seems to come closer and closer to the porn look. Teen girls don't always appreciate that is what is gong on - they see it as just what is in style, but the designers know exactly what they are looking to produce.

I agree that men and boys should teach everyone respectfully. But you cannot expect that they will not be influenced when all the images around them of attractive womanhood are highly sexualised. You are saying one thing and showing them something quite different, and they notice the gap. Schools don't let them put photos of pin up girls in their lockers any more, why do you think that is?

There is a real fear for some reason of saying to young women - look, fashion here is exploiting you, and it's actually not good for you or the young men in your classes to see women treated that way. So while we can't control what you do out of school, when you are in school we expect everyone to dress with the same kind of respect that you would in a workplace. Young women don't necessarily know this stuff unless someone tells them, and both they and young men have the right to go to school in an environment that treats bodies respectfully.

I'm struggling to understand your point goosefoot.
I found your use of "dolled up as sex objects" quite sexist and it suggested to me that you think girls wearing clothes that show a lot of skin can expect boys/men to treat them differently because of that.

I think boys/men should be taught to treat women respectfully whatever they are wearing.

Agree there's a broader cultural issue regarding sexualisation in fashion, but that's not going to be solved by policing what girls wear.

It's because females are sex objects and males are not considered in the same way.

Fashion accentuates this.

If you think there aren't sexualised male clothes, go to a gay bar for a while. But they're not main stream male fashion.

And when men wear short shorts or tight trousers that show their balls, no-one calls them sluts.

Expecting to be sexually assaulted is beside the point in a way, but there is a larger cultural message that is being sent when we tell young women this is the way they should look, and we tell young men this is the way young women should look.

They aren't idiots, they recognise sexualised presentations when they see them on tv, in porn, in advertising, and they absolutly recognise them when they see them on the young women in their school. If people think that seeing women this way in the media affects people, how is seeing the regular girls around them, their friends and sisters, not going to afect their view of what a woman is?

As for the teachers - if we found these same teachers with photographs of underage girls in some of these outfits, we would consider it pretty terrible, a reason to be fired. Do we really think that they don't notice the blatant sexualisation of the same girls around them, even if they know it's not a good thing? What is a society saying when we dress up minor girls who are supposed to be untouchable, that way. We want to avoid men thinking of these girls as sexy, but you really can't ask people not to notice when they are dressed up like a Kardashian what that is supposed to be about.

There is a huge difference between finding someone attractive and the larger cultural messages about women. If there isn't than feminists have zero business calling for advertising or page three girls or even porn to stop depicting women that way.

Awww it's sad they notice the double standard. My ds loves dresses, make up and sparkly jewellery but is already ashamed of himself for that (hes 8).

My boy already asked me, at 5

“Why is it you can only see the ladies’ tummies, mummy? “

I agree with the sentiment about words such as slut to describe the way women can dress, wholly wrong.

I don't agree with non-uniform days anyway, but that's not really the point of the thread.

I think its partially the fashion now, the highly sexualised look which dictates the market. For girls.
In the 80s we were completely covered in long black and purple shrouds, as was the fashion.

We actually had the opposite at work this term. We have been told as we work in a school clothes need washing after every wear. To address the issues with professional clothes needing dry cleaning etc, the head said he didnt expect people coming in for an hour to be in suits, so the dress code would be downgraded to a more smart casual. Then he went in detail on what he meant by That for the men. No legs. No need for ties. No denim. Etc etc. Then pointed to an example of an appropriately dressed smart casual for the workplace man. Women were assumed to know what he meant. Presumably thats because we have it every year when it gets warm and we go into summer wardrobe which is often less formal, where the men are always usually in suits.

@QuentinWinters most people would find that kind of get up on a man unacceptable. If a man turned up to his first day at a magic circle law firm dressed like that he’d be fired. If he turned up like that to a social event he’d be judged to high heaven.

The point of these dress codes/uniform regulations is to teach children how to dress appropriately in a professional context hence all the polished shoes and tucked in shirts. Unfortunately, women’s work wear isn’t as well defined as men’s so there’s greater likelihood that they may unwittingly wear something unprofessional hence the long list of rules telling them how to dress.

@LolaSmiles expresses the problem really well. DD is 5 and it's something I find very concerning. Girls wear leggings, boys wear trousers. Arguably, there nothing sexualised about 5 year olds in leggings whatsoever, but I am constantly questioning why even at 5, fashion for girls is designed to be tight and, in effect, show their bodies. Ditto shorts.

So for me, the rules shouldn't be about what girls can't wear, it should be about what is appropriate full stop - ie in professional environments, showing skin from around mid thigh to shoulders is inappropriate and this applies equally to boys wearing very short football shorts, trousers that don't cover their bum or vests. And the language used should be gender neutral accordingly.

But at the same time, we should be tackling this idea that fashion for girls is about showing their bodies. DH and I discuss this endlessly - where's the line between saying that DD (when she's older) should feel comfortable dressing how she likes without it automatically being about her trying to be "provocative" or "sexualised" and how society thinks girls should dress? We want her to be independent and confident, but I'm uncomfortable with the baked in double standard that exists in fashion for young girls in particular.

I used to work v close to a girls high school. On non-school uniform days, it was an endless procession of girls wearing very tight jeggings/leggings and cropped tops. We live close to a boys high school - non uniform days are all about jeans and trackies. At most, the jeans might be skinny jeans with a few rips.

We can tell ourselves until we're blue in the face that girls have a choice, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a double standard and we're not doing anything to address it. As a pp poster said, instead, we've just reframed it so that girls are convinced they're empowered when wearing clothes that ultimately have been designed for the male gaze.

I find men in short sleeved shirts with their guns out distracting

Yes, it's typical male behavior to flash weapons about. They should wear jackets with enough fabric to hide a shoulder holster.

But why should boys feel comfortable with girls around them being explicitly dolled up as sex objects? And I don't necessarily think that is the intent of the young women but it is certainly the intent of the fashion industry.

What is and isn't "dolled up as sex objects" is entirely cultural - it isnt innate so boys learn any discomfort because they learn to associate certain clothes with sex.

But I was actually talking about men being "distracted". That is their problem. I find men in short sleeved shirts with their guns out distracting (and chest hair. And too tight trousers). Noone expects men to change their dress because I (or other women) find it distracting. Men arent told that if they dress like that, they can expect to be sexually assaulted.

Males should not get a pass for bad behaviour based on womens clothes.

TeiTetua
Good points.
In my sector, I've tended to find that men are expected to look smarter than women.

In all the schools I've worked in men have generally had the options of some or all:

• full suit and tie
• smart trousers, shirt and tie
• smart trousers, shirt and jumper/cardigan/waistcoat/contrasting jacket
• flexibility on colours and style as none of the schools I've worked in have had a very heavy corporate feel

Meanwhile the women's dress code, like the men's, typically refers to office dress and so you'd expect it to be smart trousers and top, blazer optional (like the men), smart dress, smart skirt and top, sensible shoes. Both options have enough flexibility for men and women to style themselves how they like and to be comfortable.

What actually happens is that 75% of staff follow that and then there's a substantial minority who decide flip flops are ok, casual skirts and t shirts, summery beach dresses, perfectly nice smart dresses but they're more cocktails in a nice bar dress than working with teenagers, high heels they struggle to walk in so are never at their duty spot on time (or worse seem to never make it there at all). It is almost exclusively women who stand out for this because you don't tend to see men coming in in chino shorts and t shirt to work in the same way you see some women in casual skirt, t shirt and flip flops.

To me a semi formal dress code for men and women is quite clear, but as with teenagers who want to argue their trainers are school shoes, there's some adults who haven't grown out of that.

Now thinking about how many differing dress codes there are for women as opposed to men. My DH has a suit that gets wheeled out for weddings, parties, funerals, formal (but not black tie) dinners etc whereas what I would wear to a party would be in no way suitable to wear to a funeral in winter!

Maybe there are more dress codes for women than for men because men only get one gigantic rule: "Be fully covered, in sombre colours".

I wonder who is more free: the one who has simple basic rules, or the one who has lots of choice available, but the choice matters.

Dd's non uniform school had two rules-no offensive slogans, no sports colours.

Don't we want them to feel uncomfortable with that?

Why shouldn't grown men feel quite uncomfortable with going to work and having their students, who are mstly underage, dressed up in that way?

"They should just handle it" what does that mean? They should pretend they don't realise that is what is going on? They should just train themselves to think it is ok? Do we really want them to start thinking that way? If they do, what are the logical consequences of that perspective on how they think about women or girls?

My DH has a suit that gets wheeled out for weddings, parties, funerals, formal (but not black tie) dinners etc whereas what I would wear to a party would be in no way suitable to wear to a funeral in winter!

You could purchase a simple black shift dress (the equivalent of the male suit). Worn with bare legs/arms and a sparkly necklace it's an evening outfit. Worn with opaque tights and a cardigan and it's a winter funeral outfit.

Women, imo, generally spend more time, thought and money on their outfits. The perception of what others think of them (notably other women more so than men) is also considered.

A man would (typically), never worry about wearing the same suit and tie 8 occasions in a row. A woman (typically) wouldn't dream of doing the same. Usually the driver for that is either 1- enjoyment of finding a new outfit or 2- what she thinks other women would think of her for doing so. Your typical man wouldn't notice if a woman wore the same outfit at every formal event.

Schools could be setting the ground rules from an early age by talking about fashion and clothes choices with children.

In primary we prepared for a school trip by reminding children to wear comfortable shoes and bring a waterproof. The same conversation could be had every year, bringing in commentary about why some women's clothing is very impractical. By the time they get to sixth form, it should be really clear that women's clothes can be sexualised in a way men's are not, and it should be easier for everyone to recognise appropriate clothes.

'Appropriate' meaning practical and well fitting.

my dc go to no uniform schools.
2 rules

• torso needs to be covered (including bottom)
• no writing on clothing apart from band labels

For whatever reason there is less consensus about professional dress for women and more variation in what is worn in warmer weather

My experience is this is a hangover from when women in an office were supposed to look ornamental as well as do their job - see also makeup and heel requirements for receptionists/flight crew etc, whereas for a man it's just be clean and neat.

What I find interesting, is my kids have been to non-uniform schools, including those with 6th forms, in hot countries, and there was never much problem - because it was ever day, they pretty much all wore shorts/t-shirt or jeans/t-shirt. When we lived in asia there just wasn't this fuss over legs in short shorts - no-one even noticed. So I almost think that it's just that when you allow the kids that one day of freedom, they go all out.

Having said all of this, it also forgets that teenage girls have all the hormones that teenage boys do - we're just expected to control ourselves and not pandered to by the patriarchy, but I remember getting very flustered seeing my crush in his t-shirt and jeans the first day of year 12!