Dr Jordan Peterson

need, I think that you are right in a lot of what you wrote. I do think it is an increasing gap between left and right wing politicians, which not really is reflected in the voters.

In my more pessimism moments I worry that this is a generational thing. That people are reading less and less in-depth news and analyses and are increasingly relying on headlines, both in terms of news and in views.

Like you I believe that open debate about issues only can be a good thing. I find it frightening with the silencing on certain issues. I worry a bit about all these “safe spaces” and “trigger warnings” on university campuses. Surely we need to raise our children to be resilient and deal with open discussions? I remember studying the basics of criminal law. I was sometimes angry and horrified, but I never expected someone to warn me that certain crimes (for example murder and rape) would be pretty grim and that I might be “triggered”. I sort of figured that one out by myself.

Jordan Petersen is very keen on free speech and he doesn’t moderate his opinions based on what people want to hear which is refreshing. I think he often is misrepresented as well. One of his mantras is “be precise in your speech”. Often when he is criticised, it is because someone made an inference based on what he said and got it wrong. Having said that, obviously he is not perfect, a bit like us all.

I would find it really difficult to take any advice from him. He has failed to keep his own room in order or be the best man at your fathers funeral. Ideas which I always found problematic but now impossible to take seriously.

Yes! Love a bit of Dr JP! I find him great for parenting advice (don’t let your kids do anything which makes you not like them - so simple, so true) and love to debate his points with my DH. Even if you don’t agree with what he’s saying, he’s great to listen to/read.

The point he is making is that the "wage gap" is 'natural'. True or not, it is different to your claim. Actual wage differences between men and women in the same jobs are now very narrow. The differences comes from women being in different industries and missing out on promotions.

And that’s exactly what I object to. Women’s share of wage has been gradually rising. He believes that sometime between 1960 and now, wages have landed “where they should naturally be” and any further movement to narrow the gap ergo must be the “excesses” of feminism. As if Feminism wasn’t the reason it has been narrowing all along. There’s no evidence he’s right nor could there be. Also, he’s committing the naturalistic fallacy in any case (simply because something is natural - eg If male violence is, which again we don’t know) doesn’t make it right.

I’ll try to find a good source but the main issue is that one cannot tell the difference between genetic variation that acts via a differential environmental effect from genetic variation that acts directly on a phenotype, without doing experienents that are impossible in humans (eg raising a child completely gender neutrally). So the entire field of behavioral genetics in humans is based on assuming environment x gene interactions are “genetic/natural”.

A clear example are genes we’ve found where 1 version puts you at higher RISK for PTSD but only if you experience trauma in childhood does the risk change from the other version. Everything related to gender could be in this category. We do not know and cannot in fact.

Anyway I don’t think he’s a monster or anything I just think he’s ignorant on this issue but nevertheless keeps pretending his personal views are scientific, which bothers me a great deal as a scientist.

The left right divide increasingly seems to make little sense.

I would hazard a guess that many of us are:

1. Socially conservative, as in we are strongly interested in safeguarding and concerned about the some of the excesses of queer theory.

1. Concerned about the environment and climate change and would like to see effective policies to, say, reduce plastic, and to reduce emissions and pollution.

1. Want to rub along with others and take people as they find them, regardless of race, religion or background. And to be similarly accepted ourselves.

1. Want to see a reduction in the wealth gap, so more Sweden than the USA, with a proper safety net for the most vulnerable and protection for the NHS.

1. To expect those able to make a contribution to society, to make that contribution. I feel this way, but have been surprised to see my views reflected on MN.

1. To be able to discuss issues of relevance to society without being silenced, threatened, insulted or cancelled, and to be free to to form our own opinions. Not having media including the BBC and Guardian, or corporations like Amazon, or Twitter, or M&S, push us in directions we don't want to go.

My assumption is that the difference between us is the role of the state. I am naturally a "small state" person, so leaning towards the Tories. Others see a greater role for the state and tend towards the left.

The problem is that the left is being absolutist and is is requiring adherents to sign up to a slate of beliefs/policies including TWAW and Palestine.

I suspect Boris has no real beliefs, only ambition. However he follows Dominic Cummings who relies heavily on focus groups, who are telling him that the urban elite have moved too fast for ordinary people. Ordinary people are good people, but inclined towards social conservatism. They don't get inter-sectionalism or queer theory or Owen Jones, and are sick of being accused and blamed.

I long for a time when we can debate and agree to disagree. My student DD longs for a time when you can express polite and honest options on campus without risk of being accused.

So let Peterson contribute to the debate. If he is as awful as people suggest, it won't take long before he is ignored.

Odense

Thanks. But presumably without the typos!

(Dyslexia is my excuse...)

@Snorkers
Interesting, but we’ve only had the New Labour years to represent the “left” in government in the UK for 40+ years now. Perhaps there was more waste in the NHS then, but there was certainly a lot more public satisfaction in the NHS too.

I’m left wing and mostly enjoy listening to him. His book, however, was a bit preachy and smug.

He is usually well prepared for any counter arguments, but I found he was quite weak in countering a claim opposition/banning of abortion as not being a manifestation of patriarchy.

He seems a bit mental to me. I mean, only eating meat?!

I really don’t know much about him beyond the interview he did on Channel 4 with (can’t remember her name) and I thought he came across as intelligent, calm, measured, rational... but just a little bit creepy. I didn’t agree with everything he said but I respected his ability to articulate his points. It was a shame that the interviewer got herself into a bit of a flap instead of challenging him properly.

Why do MRAs and incels love him if he tells men to shape up etc?

That said, I'd take him over a woke cultist any day.

Watched a lot of his stuff. He's interesting, but not as clever as he thinks he is. And I do get a whiff of misogyny from him, but that might be because the comments below his videos are jammed packed with MRAs.

"Basically he sounds like another rehash of the argument that the ideal Gendered society is Somehow frozen in time around 1960 - everything before that is backwards and everything after that is “feminism gone too far”."

That is not accurate at all. Go ask him if he thinks society should revert back to the 1960s where women were overwhelmingly housewives. The answer will be no.

The point he is making is that the "wage gap" is 'natural'. True or not, it is different to your claim. Actual wage differences between men and women in the same jobs are now very narrow. The differences comes from women being in different industries and missing out on promotions. Challenge that, but don't make out like he wants women back at home.

Oh, and I thought that Suzanne Moore’s tweet when it was revealed that he was seriously ill in rehab earlier this year was disgusting.

He's a misogynistic. Plenty of his illogical word salad on YouTube

Here's betting you haven't read or watched much of it, aside from especially selected clips, that you don't know much about him at all, and simply skimmed his work on a strictly superficial level only.

However, I feel that a) he doesn't hate women like other men who might have similar, negative, views actually do and b) if more men would listen to him, they would act a lot better in society, also towards women.

I would certainly prefer to live in a world shaped by his views, than the 'liberal' thought police view.

He's a misogynistic. Plenty of his illogical word salad on YouTube.

Since when do you have to agree with every opinion someone has?

I agree.

But when I looked at his videos a year ago I honestly didn't find Jordan Petersen very coherent.

He is a member of that increasingly shrinking group of people who states what he believes to be the truth rather than what he is expected to say.

I call them the First Swords to the Sealord (if anyone’s read A Game of Thrones).

I don’t agree with him on everything, but I find his insights fascinating.

I have recently started watching lots and lots (and lots) of his videos. and i agree he's someone who can get very easily misunderstood if you don't listen to him openly and fully and don't start from a place with no prior prejudices. his ideas re taking responsibility for your life and what it means to lead a challenging fulfilling life should be appealing to everyone, no matter what gender

Maybe I need to read his book again, but I didn’t get a too sexist impression (caveat for skimming text and potentially a high bar for misogyny due to working in a male dominated environment).

I thought he observed the results of research and had theories on why that was, not that it was something he was recommending.

In terms of women and career, I think I heard an interview with him where he elaborated that for the most high flying jobs, the sacrifice required in today’s society was huge and that women in general were more sensible and less obsessive. Therefore less likely to make that sacrifice.

I do like that he is telling people to sort themselves out. And I think boys need to take responsibility and have a good role model for what a man should be like, whether it is their dad, their football coach or a psychologist on the internet (who tells them to sort themselves out).

He's a misogynist

She is transphobic

They are racist

I am so tired of insult as a form of killer argument. Surely we can do better than that.

it's there are men are 'naturally suited' to have the higher end jobs and it's low paid caring work that women are suited for.

Higher end jobs like bin man, sewage worker, labourer, street sweeper. Those sorts of swanky high end jobs?

Why do the men keep all the fun for themselves?!