Can white women be allies to BME women?

I've been following the thread for days, and thinking, rather than replying.

I have no trouble understanding that my white skin protects me from racism, and that this isn't the case for many women around the globe. Racism is unjust, and a double burden on women who are not white.

I think where there is a disconnect is the assumption that this white privilege automatically translates into significant social, economic and institutional capital for white women as a whole.

Personally, I have very little economic or social capital, despite being white. I have my one vote, I occasionally have spare cash to donate and I have a small circle of family and friends, none of whom deny their white privilege (for those who are white - my immediate family isn't).

So these calls to perform allyship leave me somewhat bemused. I already use the very limited amounts of capital I have in pro social (including anti racist) ways, and that's about all I can do.

It's as if there's an unspoken need in the conversation, and I'm not sure what it is, or how to meet it.

I've audited my own life, and I'm satisfied that I'm doing what I can on issues of race that pertain to my own country.

Am I an ally? By the standards on this thread, possibly not. Am I truly doing what I can within a very small sphere of influence? Yes.

It may not be enough to assauge the pain of racism. That's sad, but it's also realistic.

Sometimes there is an honest mistake about trolls though, as there are people who purposefully try to just wind people up. I tend to err on the side of assuming that's not the goal but others are more sensitive.

However - I do think that a lot of sensitivity on this issue now, around terms like white fragility, privalege, etc, has been created by the nature of the identity politics discourse. The whole of it is dismissive, racist, condescending, and authoritarian, and for the last few years it's been more and more the way of mainstream discourse on a number of issues, race being one of them. A lot of people are starting to push back, they feel silenced and like they can't say the right thing, they've been told various times they are bigots even though they really care about justice. And so whenever people come along using that language, they react, they are unlikely to listen and see if the person has something new to say, they are pretty sure it's going to go as it always does and they will be given no respect for what they say. Many of these are people who have been activists for years.

This is the outcome of identity politics and it will always be the outcome.

I will post the Akanbi video again, because I think she describes really well how this has happened and how it has completely screwed up people's desire to listen:

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I haven't denied that any of those exist I just may not necessarily agree that a particular example is evidence of them.

I've not denied that there are inequalities in medical care either but the article a poster quoted asked many questions about the reasons for the outcomes and it seems multifactorial. Why is it wrong to discuss that?

Funny how it's ok to silence some women isn't it?

But somehow it's ok for you to adopt this stance with me but not for other posters to adopt the same stance with op?

I do it because like I've said I'm familiar with your work. I've seen you deny sexism, misogyny, male violence and racism(it happened to me too, oh was it really racism or an unfortunate coincidence, crime of opportunity, etc)
Even on this thread you used your experience to try and negate the fact(yes fact) that systemic racism puts BAME women in danger and harms them when they need health care.
Women as a whole struggle in that area, black women even more so.

Anyways this a massive derail which I apologise to OP for and I'll stop now.

I've been on the wrong side of the recipe treatment myself Hear so, believe me, me I'm not a fan. But we all know why it happens. But the op's post didn't make my antennae twitch in the slightest. She simply sounded very pissed off - I think she even said at one point that she wanted to vent.
I'm not subscribing motives to anyone - it's not for me to say - but I felt embarrassed at how she was jumped on from the very beginning, before she'd even told her story.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

I'm not merailing I am asking.

But somehow it's ok for you to adopt this stance with me but not for other posters to adopt the same stance with op?

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

I'm very familiar with your questioning whether things are racist,including murder from other threads.

I'm also familiar with your "work" on the FWR board.

Nice merailing though... again.

It just feels like no constructive conversations can be had about any of this.

His life choices and personal background do not justify the technique used to restrain him which appear to have led to his death

i don't think anyone has suggested that is the case.

*None of which had anything to do with his murder, so irrelevant8

If you had read the sequence....that was in response to how GF could have changed his mind set. Having been poor, i refuse to accept that poverty and economic deprivation is a direct causal factor of criminality and extreme violence. That would be patronising in the extreme, and would do a disservice to al those who don't resort to violence and criminality as away to deal with their life circumstances.

I don't know why they did it Hear - all I know is that the responses made me squirm.

I think the truth is, for many of us on here, is that we've been through decades of political activism, or holding to highly charged political positions of one form or other, but have now arrived at a place, in which we can now take a broader range view - with less heat, and more reflection.

Floisme

But we are dealing with the written word on here, so none of us can respond unless the comment is posted.

So we read it and then what?

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

@Goosefoot thanks I’ll look it up!

Not the case at all. I don't feel uncomfortable. I'm not even the target of this "meme" but it still makes me feel uneasy. Women are told that we have to stay vigilant all the time when it comes to men. I don't see black men as being more aggressive than white men at all. If we don't and something happens to us, we are blamed for it. The last few sentences were aimed at one poster above by the way.

You are completly disregarding the entire point the OP is making, which I suppose actually proves her point entirely. This is about white women dismissing BAME women's specific struggles (you know how they are oppressed because they are BAME and a woman, whereas white women don't have that double level of oppression). Yet you are focusing on specifics of what this one woman has said instead of the issue at hand. It's no better than those against JK Rowling who are too busy being angry at her to understand the point she is trying to make.

Should society validate an individual's perception of discrimination if that's what the individual believes happened?
I think we start by letting the individual have their say and we take what they're saying seriously. If we start mustering our defence before they've even finished telling their story then we can't hear or take on board what they're saying.

Some people have said that listening on it's own doesn't achieve anything and of course that's correct. But I think it can be the hardest part - and I include myself here.

[quote GreytExpectations]@DandyMandy I think she is speaking quite a bit of truth and you just don't like it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Same way that some men don't like hearing about feminist issues and sexism.

She isnt mentioning men because she is discussing the issues faced within feminism, within discussions by women.[/quote]
Not the case at all. I don't feel uncomfortable. I'm not even the target of this "meme" but it still makes me feel uneasy. Women are told that we have to stay vigilant all the time when it comes to men. I don't see black men as being more aggressive than white men at all. If we don't and something happens to us, we are blamed for it. The last few sentences were aimed at one poster above by the way.

@DandyMandy I think she is speaking quite a bit of truth and you just don't like it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Same way that some men don't like hearing about feminist issues and sexism.

She isnt mentioning men because she is discussing the issues faced within feminism, within discussions by women.

Men decided they were women's "protectors". Maybe some women still buy into that idea but frankly I find it insulting and silly.

But that is the attitude perpetuated with "there's an aggressive black man" , "I'm feeling threatened by a black man" , "there's an angry black man trying to run me over, I'm fearing for my life", "I'm calling the police", "I'm calling Immigration ", "I'm calling your employer because you're harassing/threatening me".

That's a power that women in the US (at least) have. Having it wouldn't necessarily be an issue, and it could be blamed on men only . The issue is that they know they have it and they use it,frequently and deliberately.

In fact I watched a interesting video clip of Malcom X telling people to beware of the white liberal who was too keen to take the lead rather than supporting.
Rewatched similar videos too, if you change "White Liberals" to "Far Left/Critical theory/ Wokerati" it kind of apt for what's happening right now.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YmjWW9tx4
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjS0ZVa8oyI

So, is it the case that a person claims discrimination based only on their own perception? Should society validate an individual's perception of discrimination if that's what the individual believes happened?

The supposed rules of misogyny are basically all logical fallacies or sticks to beat people with without engaging with what they've said

The rules of misogyny are simply observations on the social hierarchy and some of the fallacious beliefs that we are taught to accept without question.
Pointing out logical fallacies framed as logical fallacies is, dare I say it, a logical fallacy called the tu quoque fallacy.