Can white women be allies to BME women?

[quote nellodee]I'm trying to educate myself on intersectionality. I tend to view things through a data lens, so I took a look at the ONS report on income and race and its very interesting reading. It's here, for anyone who wants a look at it.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018[/quote]
That's a really interesting analysis.

Look, if a poor white woman has half a crumb, and her black friend has a quarter of a crumb, together or apart, they've still got less than one crumb between them.

What's the point of dividing those two women by describing them as inborn racial enemies? I don't care if black women choose to focus on race and I assume that no-one really minds if my focus is, say, housing, or sex trafficking. Both efforts work towards a better world.

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

My dream job would be being in charge of the Men in Black, only it would be the Women in Black, only that brand has already been taken.
Instead of monitoring extra-terrestrials I would be monitoring networks of cultists who hide in plain sight. In fact I have been doing my dream job for many years on an informal, very low paid, state sponsored capacity. My poverty stricken lifestyle and (incorrect) diagnosis of delusional disorder has meant that I have been able to access spaces and services for people who are extremely vulnerable and assess them. I have also been able to spend zillions of hours on the www researching my interests. I am in a very empowered position to report back from the belly of the beast in this respect.

I very much doubt that any BME women (or anyone else for that matter) would want to trade places with me, either in terms of what I have endured over my life (3 1/2 years a slave) plus many years of batshit gaslighting, however I am please to offer some of the fruits of my research for free in an unpaid capacity, for the benefit of all.

I come from the Linda Bellos, Trevor Philip's generation. I'm afraid I need specific objectives and strategies to achieve meaningful change. And honest dialogue is an essential part of that process. Huge progress has been made but like feminism has over the last decade or so rolled back.
I am from the same generation as you. Linda Bellos and Trevor Phillips are of interest to me (not so much in terms of uncovering scandals as in terms of what they represent). Also of interest to me, in many ways, is Candace Owens and her relationship to the power structures to the right of the political spectrum that are relevant to my interests and to this thread.

I agree with you about honest dialogue. There is much that needs to be discussed.

I am extremely pushed for time today and will post later today if I can. If this thread runs out of posts I will start a new one.

I'm trying to educate myself on intersectionality. I tend to view things through a data lens, so I took a look at the ONS report on income and race and its very interesting reading. It's here, for anyone who wants a look at it.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018

Do we ask men to not apply to a job to help Women? No. Then why would you do it for race? But we might write to complain if the early stages of recruitment are not blind,

Better to lead by example, shining a light on the good performance of the community that needs supporting...that might just be saying thanks and copying in the line manager

If you have more power, putting in place measures , such as querying the team that has never promoted outside of its comfort zone , just calling it out makes people stop to think

Sorry for typos, typing with a temp, prob not a great idea!

I read the article. I read White Fragility.
I disagree with both.

I see a racial essentialism in both that I think is harmful - not to white people, really, but too the anti-racist cause.

I can't agree with an approach I genuinely see as harmful.in the same way I can't agree with gender essentialism just give supportive.

I wonder if what is being asked is less political and more personal - a desire that white women bear witness the pain of racism.

I'm not good at bearing witness. I am good at rocking up to hand out election how to vote flyers for my federal and state MP's (both women, neither white).

I might be particularly dense and/or racist, but I literally don't understand what is being asked. It feels emotional, not material.

@Imnobody4, “If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.”
I’ve had many conversations with BAME friends along the lines of have you thought of, are you interested in? Similarly a much younger colleague has really championed me to do things I hadn’t thought of because I felt too old. Championing other women is really powerful and effective.

I am white. I have absolutely no doubt that I am in a better position in life -socioeconomically, and in terms of my emotional wellbeing - than I would be if I were the same me, but gone through life being black. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong. But denying it IS wrong.

I'm sorry but I have no time for this navel gazing. I find it self indulgent and actually changes nothing. No one on this thread is either denying or supporting racism. No one denies the layers and complexities involved. But getting up every morning saying forgive me for I am white and privileged achieves nothing except a holier than thou attitude. We're all sinners but I recognise I'm a sinner therefore I'm really superior.

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

The issue is really a disadvantage/advantage axis.
I come from the Linda Bellos, Trevor Philip's generation. I'm afraid I need specific objectives and strategies to achieve meaningful change. And honest dialogue is an essential part of that process. Huge progress has been made but like feminism has over the last decade or so rolled back.

I didn't say whether she was right. I said I thought it was interesting.

That's not Cargle; she's quoting Dr. Robin DiAngelo.)

But I've seen posters on MN criticise DiAngelo for her approach. Who says who is right?

I think one thing we can all do very easily (if we haven't already of course) is to look at the links that the op asked us to read. The Rachel Cargle article in Harpers Bazaar talks about how white women so often react to these discussions, and it's pretty much a checklist of how this thread has unfolded:

White women get so caught up in how they feel in a moment of black women expressing themselves that they completely vacuum the energy, direction, and point of the conversation to themselves and their feelings.

Speaking strictly for myself, I know I do this.

I thought this was interesting too:
“the key to moving forward is what we do with our discomfort. We can use it as a door out—blame the messenger and disregard the message. Or we can use it as a door in by asking, Why does this unsettle me? What would it mean for me if this were true?”
(That's not Cargle; she's quoting Dr. Robin DiAngelo.)

I don't feel the OP is directing her justified anger over her experiences of racism and sexism at the right crowd.

As a BAME woman myself, I understand that tackling racism and tackling misogyny are both huge jobs, and realistically, few people have the time in their lives to tackle both. In my own case, I have at various points had to prioritise my action to the fight against one or the other, depending which felt most critical at that moment and I don't blame other women for choosing to focus on the one that affects them most. We all do what we can do. Intersectionality doesn't only apply re race and sex, either - plenty of feminists I admire are fighting on two fronts at once re homophobia and misogyny.

I found the OP frustrating and unhelpful because it sought to blame specifically white women for not solving all problems at once. When actually they are allowed to focus on just one thing at a time.

Yes, it would be lovely if all the good people had time to fight on all fronts at once but it's not realistic so I accept that when battling racism, I will turn to support from others doing the same. When I want to fight misogyny, I will look to support from feminists on here and elsewhere. I don't usually bother raising issues re racism on here, not because I think everyone here is racist, but because I get that everyone here is busy fighting other important battles re misogyny, which I also support them in fighting, when I get a break from fighting the constant racism.

I do sympathise that fighting on two or more fronts is exhausting, and yes, there will be individuals who support me in attacking misogyny who are racist or vice versa. But to suggest that white feminists are the main problem in racism is as problematic as suggesting that BAME men are the main problem in misogyny.

In any big movement there will be inevitably be some unpleasant individuals. Doesn't mean the movement is fundamentally at fault.

Divide and rule benefits only the racists and misogynists.

Who is being beaten over the head?

Everyone needs to contribute!"

I agree. For some people though all they are able to do now is to not be racist themselves. Does it help anyone for people in very difficult situations to then be beaten over the head and told they aren't using their white privilege to help others?

People are complex. Lives are complicated. You might well hold privilege in one area but be absolutely disadvantaged in another area - if you are wrung out coping with the effects the disadvantage has over your life how do you have anything left to give? Making those people feel even worse or even more guilty benefits who?

Then just say "yes - agree! I already do what I can - like x, y and z". I encourage anyone who isn't already doing what they can to do so! Everyone needs to contribute!"

You missed the part of my post where I said I already do what I can.

It's weird to be told to do what I already do, and have done since I could vote.

My point is that having done what I can, there is no more. I can't fix the wound of racism. Because I am one human, not the all powerful White Woman who could fix things if only she would try harder.

But as to the point as to feeling so low in the pecking order that you feel there is nothing you can do

Firstly recognising that but for your skin colour, things could be worse for you personally helps show that you do understand the problem

Secondly not trying to turn it into an oppression Olympics helps , as it unites rather than divides us, and it is only united that we will change things

And then, make yourself aware of any bias you might display that might perpetuate the problems. Would you make for a white rather than a BAME shop assistant? If that happens a lot it would affect their performance review .mAre you more likely to avoid eye contact with a BAME bus driver? That would affect their self esteem and how well connected they feel in society

You might not be able to much affect the structural issues, but by tackling everyday racism at grass roots level you will be helping to shift the playing field and the mindsets of those who can make those changes

Another way of expressing privilege is that whatever a white person's situation is, it would be worse if she were not white.

So the really well off, professionally successful black woman, who has never suffered sexual or domestic abuse, would probably still have climbed even higher if she had been white. It will inevitably be an even more isolating experience to sit in an executive board room than it is for a white woman. And in some situations, in which her economic privilege is not conspicuous, she will still be subject to racism in a way that her white counterpart won't.

The white woman who has struggled all her life, has been assaulted or abused or doesn't have enough money is still likely to have escaped extra injustices due to being white - whether it's having police be a little less dismissive of her complaints, or not being yelled at to go back to her own country' or called shitty names at school.

Being black adds an extra layer of challenge, prejudice and injustice ON TOP of whatever else you are dealing with. White privilege is not having the extra layer.

It really isn't rocket science, and the fact that it makes white folks uncomfortable doesn't change the fact that it is true.

I am white. I have absolutely no doubt that I am in a better position in life -socioeconomically, and in terms of my emotional wellbeing - than I would be if I were the same me, but gone through life being black. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong. But denying it IS wrong.

Where it gets more confusing for me is how best to be an ally. I think I do get and acknowledge white privilege. I donate money to black empowerment causes. I call out racism if I see it. But I also have a feeling that getting actively involved in black women's causes is to take them over and start to think my voice matters in a way that it shouldn't.... so tend to hold back a bit on the assumption that that reinforces people's ability and right to speak for themselves, rather than be spoken for. I don't want to do the race equivalent of man-splaining....(though I do spend quite a bit of time trying to explain to other white people). I don't know if this 'holding back' is right because of course it can look like passivity.

A pp cited the initial comments here - calling the op a troll or a man - as proof of racism yet I've been called the same on this board many times. So, does that mean the same treatment is racist when given to one poster but, what, when given to another? Or could it be that regulars on this thread just do this to anyone that doesn't agree with them, regardless of race, which is equality isn't it?

The first poster following the OP's introduction accused her post of 'reeking of being a man'. It has now been deleted but it is a frequent form of put down on this board. It suggests that some posters are not prepared to listen and acknowledge those who have a different opinion/ life experience to them. There were a number of complaints about this on another thread recently as well.

I would hope that posters are able to contribute and express concerns about very important issues without being chased off in this manner.

Well, I wasn't seeking to disprove white privilege, which I explicitly acknowledged in my post.

I was simply reflecting that as an individual, my personal social and economic capital is nonetheless limited. I do what I can, but if it isn't enough by some projected standard of what white privilege should manifest as in the material world, there's not much I can do about that.

It's exactly the same problem as with understanding feminism , or climate change for that matter you can not prove or disprove an advantage by looking at individual cases, you have to look across the group/picture

In a like for like scale, on average if you take pairs of women who are otherwise identical except for skin colour ,age 20 , then the white group will on average by age 30 be richer and healthier and less likely to have a criminal conviction , less likely to have suffered physical abuse. There will be exceptions, and it's quite possible that a BAME will be top of the pile, but that does not disprove the priveledge the whites has

I think where there is a disconnect is the assumption that this white privilege automatically translates into significant social, economic and institutional capital for white women as a whole

But it does translate into that privaledge when compared to BAME women. Nobody is saying life has been easy for white women, we are saying it's not been made harder because of the colour of your skin. You don't have to deal with structural and institutional racism AND sexism, therefore you are privaledged in that regard.