Can white women be allies to BME women?

I don't believe they can as a norm. I see racism explained away too often on forum so, no. The intersectionality of racism and sexism is dismissed out of hand and if you look back over posts on this board you'll see it for yourself.

Oh, and I forgot to say -no, it's not lucky to get angry discourse. It's not a race to the bottom. Just as black women have dignity by virtue of being human, so do I.

Many women are abuse survivors. Like me, it's retraumatising to hear the same language directed at you as your abuser is

Unfortunately, my abuse was racialized, with 'shut up white fucking b*tch' being at the mild end of the scale. My abuser also told me to stop weaponising my fucking tears.

So no, it's not lucky to find yourself hearing those things again, directed against you unspecified crimes, though I'll agree it's a lot worse to end up dead under the knee of a murdering cop.

dontdivideus.com/

09:27StuffThem

@Falleninwithabadcrowd
BAME stands for Black and Minority Ethnicities*
BME the same just shortened without the 'and

does the Google not work on your device?

Google told me the 'A' was for Asian. Either way, I think the terms are unhelpful.

The Office for National Statistics agrees.
Use terms like “ethnic minority”, “ethnic minorities”, “ethnic minority population(s)” and so on, instead of acronyms such as BME and BAME, which are frequently used to refer to all except the White ethnic group. This is to avoid highlighting particular groups above others.
style.ons.gov.uk/house-style/race-and-ethnicity/
As do the signaturies of
*Under soulless acronyms such as BAME and POC, all ethnic minorities are robbed of individual agency, and assumed to be victims of injustice.

[quote BraveGoldie]@HeistSociety I hope you don't think my post was directed at you. It certainly wasn't. I didn't tag it because I am not interested in a punch up with an individual - several of the posts have now been deleted anyway.

And I don't think the wider criticism is aimed at you, either. I understand it can be alarming to seem to be bunched in together with a lot of crappiness you have been distancing yourself from - or evening fighting - all your life. I get that the discourse can be unappealing at times.

But good god, why shouldn't it be? When dealing with grinding, endless injustice, we are bloody lucky if the worst we get is angry discourse.

[/quote]
I am pretty worried about the essentializing of race, not because there's some white supremacy I'd like to be getting on with, but because it seems to run counter to what I was taught - which was NOT to be colorblind, because racism exists, but also to understand that we are all human people, capable of the same best and worst. To empathise on the basis of us being no differently humaned, kwim? And that's always been the base for my politics.
And this whole Whiteness thing ? Idk. It seems like it could really backfire.

I do want to listen, but I can't listen effectively, if the material request hasn't been communicated. Does that make sense? In good faith, I am not sure what is being asked.

Is it to drop feminism or class activism or disability rights for the time being in favour of Anti racism activism?

Is it to regurgitate Di Angelo?

Is it to use empathic imagination to hold black women's pain?

If a leftist is failing somehow to understand and meet the unspoken requests behind the Di Angelo type discourse, it doesn't matter much, in material ways. Because we do keeping showing up for just causes anyway, because it's right.

But not everyone is a long standing, committed leftist. I think there are scary times ahead in terms of backlash from the right, and honestly? I don't know-how the shut up discourse helps avoid that.

several of the posts have now been deleted anyway. Were they the ones that were so sure that increased criminal activity was repsnsible for higher number in prison... and didn't stop to think about societal causes? As in do the crime, do the time?

I haven't found a way of countering that yet... not that the speaker will stop and listen to!

Heist Get back indoors, shut the fuck up!

That seems to be the message I have been getting, recently!

It is depressing. Like you I'll carry on as I am, wait for the world to turn a bit more. See if more common ground, common sense can be found!

@HeistSociety I hope you don't think my post was directed at you. It certainly wasn't. I didn't tag it because I am not interested in a punch up with an individual - several of the posts have now been deleted anyway.

And I don't think the wider criticism is aimed at you, either. I understand it can be alarming to seem to be bunched in together with a lot of crappiness you have been distancing yourself from - or evening fighting - all your life. I get that the discourse can be unappealing at times.

But good god, why shouldn't it be? When dealing with grinding, endless injustice, we are bloody lucky if the worst we get is angry discourse.

Supremacy

I think there's a communication breakdown of some kind.

Over the last 30 years I've been very willing to hear about, say, Aboriginal deaths in custody, and then to do whatever - sign a petition, send an email, donate, go on a March, share an article, share accurate stats to doubters. I know racism exists, just as classism exists, and sexism exists, and homophobia exists.

But around the time of George Floyd's murder, the discourse was absolutely flooded with demands that I recognise myself as full of white racial especially, and educate yourself! Do the work! Not like that! Speak out! Shut up! and it's been incredibly odd to experience.

My politics, which include anti-racism, haven't changed in 30 years. I'm the same left voting Social Democrat I ever was.

So I just find the current discourse depressing. Given that fact, I'm just going to keep doing as described above, supporting anti-racism actions in material ways. Honestly I don't care at this point if I get called a white supremacist for some unspecified, non-material vague accusation of either not speaking up or not shutting up. It has about as much effect on me as being called a transphobe. I know neither are true.

Anybody who thinks who is in prison has nothing to do with race, is really deluded. At every step, black men are more likely to go through this, and unless you have truly scummy idiotic views about some ethnicities being innately more criminal, then surely the explanation has to be socio-economic disadvantages (due to historic and contemporary racism) and first hand racism. Whether it's the deprived neighborhood you are born into, the inferior-funded school, the poorer job prospects, the crappier policing, the higher likelihood of being stopped and searched, the higher likelihood of conviction on scanty evidence, and the higher likelihood of a more severe sentence.

And to take the thread back closer to topic- of course black women don't feel supported here. I can't count the number of times I have read threads started by black women saying they feel they have encountered some form of racism and they have been told by multiple posters that it's not about race. A lot of people on this site just refuse to see the lives and experiences of BAME people. And that is the first, basic step to being able to support or be an ally.

Thank you!

Yes I saw! I reported my own post and hopefully that will be deleted soon too.

It's been deleted, so it seems as if you're talking about me, and I'm no MRA.

Yes. Or perhaps a more accurate way to describe it would be institutional racism. It's not always villainous in intent, and can often look more like paternalism. Sometimes it's just out and out racial prejudice spreading virally through a work force.

@Falleninwithabadcrowd
BAME stands for Black and Minority Ethnicities
BME the same just shortened without the 'and

does the Google not work on your device

The US has many problems. Gun culture isn't going away, and it is interlinked with police brutality.

I think sometimes the data doesn't show us everything, either. I don't know that I buy America has no systemic racism. I mean, it exists in my Anglophone country.

The numbers are clear. The probability of Black men being searched and ending up in prison for drug possession is way higher than for whites, even though the ratios of drug possession are the same. It is a direct result of racially discriminate policing (stop and frisk anyone?) that the prions are still full of Black men locked away for the nonviolent offence of marijuana possession, while white men with similar proclivities have made themselves multi million businesses of it after legalization.
Yeah, I know that cop lethally shooting a Black ten or twelve year old kid touting a toy gun no questions asked is also just one video, and....
It is hard to believe you are genuinely so blind to this ever repeating reality. Do you think Slavery was real? John Crow? Water fountains for whites only? Do you think those attitudes magically disappeared with the laws? And what is MLK up to these days? Enjoying his old age in the Hamptons?

The stats for police murder are murkier

As more unarmed whites were killed by cops than blacks.

Also, if were going into stats then it cant be ignored that blacks commit disproportionately more violent crime by a significant amount so of course the police presence will be more vigilant. Thats to be expected though

And looking at the US situation, where water fountains for whites were a thing up til the 60‘s or so

So they haven't been a thing for over half a century because the american government recognised it was wrong. Institutionally racist countries dont tent to see things in that manner.

I think there is statistical evidence that in the US, black people are harassed more often than white people, by the police. There are claims that it's the nexus of poverty/race leading to this differential treatment.

The stats for police murder are murkier.