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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can white women be allies to BME women?

588 replies

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 03:18

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

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Porridgeoat · 02/07/2020 06:19

It’s never crossed my mind that there is a competition between racism and sexism. They are both shit and equally as important.

AskDan · 02/07/2020 06:13

I read the articles. I agree that there is institutionalised racism, which means that black women face both sexism and racism, it is massive.

With regards to BLM or any political/ social justice movement I dont think you need to agree with any organisatiin in its entirety. So therefore women can support BLM whilst disagreeing with TWAW.

I think one of the reasons society is so disjointed us because we have this "for" or "against" culture, which leads to cancel culture, but it is OK to take a nuanced view.

I thought that the Harpers Bazaar article mentioning "tone policing" was really interesting because all the time GC feminists feel that their words are censored. Or worse, we are told to be nice.

SonEtLumiere · 02/07/2020 06:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 06:09

and I will look at that article you referred too

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 06:08

I agree with @madwoman1ntheattic

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 06:06

White women are not all the same, yes of course racist white women exist as do racist white men. I don't find blaming the white women only for society's racism very feminist though, or very fair.

I agree

madwoman1ntheattic · 02/07/2020 06:02

If we’re talking capitalism and a ‘cure’, I liked the bluestocking article discussing social radicalism (a la BLM) and economical radicalism. I fall more on the economical radicalism side, I’m afraid. And also, sorry, It’s also written by a white feminist. A very sensible one.

madwoman1ntheattic · 02/07/2020 05:58

I’ve seen a fair few black women pissed at BLM for focusing on black men, such that they are refusing to support the movement. I read what they had to say and I support their right to remove themselves from supporting a movement that they feel is ignoring their needs as black women. They believe BLM is mysoginistic. (That said - they don’t speak for all black women, although I do tend more towards their interpretation in some aspects).
I have also seen reasoned discussion about whether the white people vociferously supporting BLM will actually change anything about their ingrained racism in rl, or whether the social media and March support is lip service to a popular cause. All important questions.
The trans issue is of course inflammatory. It plays into the wider angst around black appropriation and appropriation of womanhood. Neither are acceptable, despite some attempts towards hypocrisy. The use of black transwomen to attempt to portray ‘white feminists’ as right wing racist bigots is ridiculous.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:58

@yinnybun

I actually have only seen one post on AIBU criticising BLMs view on capitalism. I actually get the point about capitalism because capitalism & the way society is built is racist however I'm not sure how we change that system.

Do you have any threads you can link as an example? The search function on the app is crap.

Attached a screen shot.
Can white women be allies to BME women?
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Beerincomechampagnetastes · 02/07/2020 05:57

You’re not alone in disliking white women op, in fact, you’ve got a lot of company.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8480267/Washington-Post-opinion-editor-says-shes-received-threats-white-men.html

Who knew we were so powerful 🤷‍♀️

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:55

@xxyzz tired of the troll hunting. My posting history is open for your review. I’ve been pretending to be a BAME mother of 2 for years apparently, talk about a long con.

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xxyzz · 02/07/2020 05:52

I'm a BAME woman and I don't find labelling all white women as a mass who all do the same thing very helpful.

White women are not all the same, yes of course racist white women exist as do racist white men. I don't find blaming the white women only for society's racism very feminist though, or very fair.

Seems like an odd point for a black feminist to make. Sounds more like the kind of thing a white TRA would say (you can see thousands of examples on Twitter).

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 05:50

I actually have only seen one post on AIBU criticising BLMs view on capitalism. I actually get the point about capitalism because capitalism & the way society is built is racist however I'm not sure how we change that system.

Do you have any threads you can link as an example? The search function on the app is crap.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:42

I have seen many posts on MN saying not to support BLM because it’s pro trans which is anti-woman.

Ok so where does a black feminist stand in this situation? If she’s pro BLM she’s anti-woman?

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yinnybun · 02/07/2020 05:41

How is that a derail? I'm not white & my parents are immigrants (lots of things I don't understand about the English culture) & I will never be on a corporate board or have the opportunity. I'm asking the question because I don't know what actual change should look like.

madwoman1ntheattic · 02/07/2020 05:41

Yes, racism is absolutely systemic across the board, as is sexism. As a white female manager I have (interviewed and hired) a team of seven female staff, none of whom are white British and three are recent immigrants. And no, I don’t run a cleaning or carer service - we are all office administrators in education. I’m on a contract - I will be back at the same job they do in a couple of months.
I just can’t help wondering who benefits by pitting women against each other. Your examples are undoubtedly true, but I’m not sure they are perpetrated by white ‘feminists’. If you divide women, we are inherently weaker as a class, whatever our colour. That doesn’t mean I don’t recognize racism, but it does make me more concerned about our dilution as a political class, particularly given the prominence of black men headlined in the media and the absence of black women. I see a lot of information being shared about murdered black women, and much anger about MMIW in Canada.
Maybe you are asking for personal experiences of racism in the UK to be heard? I hear your anger about threads on here where personal experiences have been discounted - on FWR or on the wider boards? It isn’t something I have noticed on FWR but if this happening on the feminism boards here you are right to be angry. And I apologize for not having recognized it. Can you give an example?

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:40

How do white women not in these positions change things?

As a start by accepting that racism compounds disadvantages for BAME women, taking their concerns seriously, and in moments when BAME people’s issues are getting public attention not diverting the topic or minimizing.

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CloudsCoveredTheSky · 02/07/2020 05:37

@yinnybun but that has nothing to do with BAME women.

Nice derailing though

yinnybun · 02/07/2020 05:30

It was in response to this point

How many of the white women who get selected for corporate boards use their positions to create opportunities for BAME women? So many times they choose white female protégés and pat themselves on the back doe breaking the glass ceiling. They don’t look for BAME young women to support. And when those women speak up after experiencing racism they are often gaslighted and ignored.

How do white women not in these positions change things?

CloudsCoveredTheSky · 02/07/2020 05:27

" A white English born mc women who went to private school &/or uni will have a much higher chance of being on a corporate board then a Romanian born immigrant."

The fuck does that have to do with it?

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:26

@yinnybun oh, you mean #notallmen?

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yinnybun · 02/07/2020 05:25

I also think it's not helpful to lump
all white women together. A white English born mc women who went to private school &/or uni will have a much higher chance of being on a corporate board then a Romanian born immigrant.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/07/2020 05:23

I don’t think “white privilege” is an abhorrent concept.

A white man would not experienced this difficulty, for example. www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/actor-and-aboriginal-elder-uncle-jack-charles-refused-taxi-in-melbourne-again-20160413-go5lrb.html

Pretending systemic racism doesn’t exist is about as useful as pretending water isn’t wet.

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:22

@yinnybun

And I’m angry at how white women are behaving.

How would you like white women to behave?

They should recognize the issues that additionally keep BAME women back in society are real and not see them as a challenge or competition to feminism when raised.
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missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 05:20

@madwoman1ntheattic my personal experience is that in university and the workplace, the womens/feminist networks are very white oriented, and the BAME networks are very male oriented.

In some cases it is easier to go along with women’s networks and feminist politics as their “whiteness” helps them be seen as less radical within the workplace.

How many of the white women who get selected for corporate boards use their positions to create opportunities for BAME women? So many times they choose white female protégés and pat themselves on the back doe breaking the glass ceiling. They don’t look for BAME young women to support. And when those women speak up after experiencing racism they are often gaslighted and ignored.

On MN there are hundreds of posts about what many in society consider niche issues (eg trans rights) but race and ethnicity topics are rarely taken seriously. And posters who talk about racism are attacked frequently here. Yet it’s a safe space to talk about feminism when race is excluded from the conversation.

It feels like many white feminists refuse to accept that they benefit from any privilege in society due to their race. While wanting men to accept that they benefit from male privilege and are vocal and active in shouting it from the rooftops. And they don’t use their privilege to help non-white women.

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