Can white women be allies to BME women?

[quote BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup]@Falleninwithabadcrowd Romanians are white Europeans, so no they aren't BAME.[/quote]
Do you know what BAME stands for?

It's good to listen to a diverse range of voices on these issues. I found the ones below really useful.

unherd.com/2020/06/minority-women-can-think-for-themselves/

I came on here thinking 'doh" but the first few responses seem unexpectedly aggressive , so thanks for raising this, will try and read later

OP on these boards all you get is white fragility if you talk about race issues.

The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters has also been weighing on me.

I didn't know about this! Jesus Christ.

The BAME covers ethnic minority as well as black and Asian? So Romanians, travellers etc ?

they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist

Have you ever heard anyone saying this?

I'm asking as someone who has witnessed racism countless times and witnessed white people denying racism countless times when they have been or are being racist.

I have never, ever heard a white woman saying that she cannot be racism because of her experience of sexism. I'm not saying that it has never happened, but I have never experienced this and cannot imagine that if a woman said this that it would not be called out quick time by other women.

I have witnessed white people, including women, jump through various hoops to try to deny their racism. One of the most ridiculous being "race doesn't exist - it is just a social construct, therefore I cannot be racist".

That one has to be up there alongside, "but I really find black women / men attractive / I have had relationships with black men / women", "some of my best friends..."

I am pushed for time today but one way that I may be able to be an ally to you and to BME women is that I have for some years worked extremely hard to research the astroturfing of activist movements by sinister actors.

I can show you some of the ways in which BME women's (and men's) struggles have been appropriated and astroturfed by cults, criminals and other sinister forces if this would be helpful and I would be pleased to do this free of charge as a way of showing my commitment to the struggle.

It may take me a day or 2 to put a few things together and even then it would just be the start as I have a lot of data to share.

Where is my home as a black woman? It seems like we get short shrift from everyone

Black feminists from Sojourner Truth to bell hooks, to Audre Lorde, to Kimberley Crenshaw, to Reni Eddo-Lodge are central to my feminism (I’m white). They’ve highlighted the intersection of oppression due to sex and oppression due to racialised identity for a couple of centuries. They’ve forged the more radical wing of feminism as it happens, which is often the section of feminism held up as being the epitome of white privilege.

Been pretty disheartened over the past few weeks to learn of the attacks 2 UK based women who campaign against FGM have been facing for naming women’s biology. The recent doxxing of Pragna Patel of Southall Black Sisters has also been weighing on me. Jana Cornel and Hibo Wadare are both worth checking out on Twitter. They need money for their organisations and Hibo has a book.

These are causes we can support.

Sisteroutrider and Marie Lagouste are also black radical feminists who powerful in their voice.

@FantaOra there will be some. I know and met women on very senior positions who have and do post on MN.

In my eyes the first step in bridging that gap would be listening to women like OP and truly hearing them. Without dismissing, minimising, ridicule etc. Otherwise they'll become even more disenfranchised,disillusioned with feminism , feeling like they and their issues don't matter. Even worse some fear and distrust white women because they know they can and will turn on them.

You can't promote unity by pretending a problem doesn't exist.

@Falleninwithabadcrowd Romanians are white Europeans, so no they aren't BAME.

BAME men have used this as a way to crush feminist movements within the community. “Oh feminism is a white thing, it’s not in your best interests” kind of thing.

Someone needs to tell these men to fuck off then. Preferably BAME women.

BAME men have used this as a way to crush feminist movements within the community. “Oh feminism is a white thing, it’s not in your best interests” kind of thing...

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Can't have you going off and being liberated; wouldn't suit them.

10th rule of racism: the worst thing about white racism is that it makes white people look bad.

12th rule of racism: BAME people's ability to recognize white behavior patterns is racism.

I suppose you have your answer op - depressing as it is. I feel like I've just watched every criticism of white feminism Reni Eddo Lodge lists in action.

I'd like to think I am an ally or at least have the potential to be but I absolutely recognise the systematic racism at play here. Many of the posters who've replied are so busy feeling personally attacked they are completely unable to listen. It's this attitude that's responsible for dividing feminism not the people like the op who speak up about the problems they face with white feminism.

How many of the white women who get selected for corporate boards

Are here on mumsnet? Probably none.

can one not can you one!

They could instead support other initiatives to improve equality in society rather than blathering on about what they don’t like about Black Lives Matter

Can you one not do both?

Clouds said the disadvantages faced by a Romanian immigrant have nothing to do with BAME women.
Why not?
Isn't she BAME?
Does BAME just mean dark skinned?

I think you can support the ideology of BLM , without supporting the political organisation and agreeing with everything they say.

However, I also realise(and have had for some time) that there is a massive issue with black women being expected to join in and support feminist causes, while not getting the same back when it comes to race. Not just that, but even worse they're marginalised, told they're wrong etc if something that would benefit them on the race issues is in any way detrimental to feminism.

There has been a fair amount of "pick a side " recently and I can see why BAME women are angry and struggling with seeing what they considered their sisters and allies turn on them.

[quote missyoumuch]Still sounds to me like some white women are claiming BLM is a Trojan horse to bring in trans rights which is anti women and not addressing the core of BLM which has nothing to do with trans issues.

www.reddit.com/r/BAMEVoicesUK/comments/h9l2kh/intersectional_gang_rise_up/utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf[/quote]
That's really not it. There are a number of aims that people don't agree with, as they have said. My comment was in direct relation to your claims on AIBU.

I'm not going to take Travis Alabama seriously, sorry. Somebody who fetishises teenage girls and demands to use women's changing rooms even though he isn't a trans woman? No thanks. Although some of the other threads on that sub Reddit look interesting, so I will be reading further.

Do you see it as all-or-nothing in regards to BLM's manifesto, OP? Genuinely interested to hear more. And I am open to changing my mind on some things.

OP, I'm sorry for some of the responses you're getting here. You're not in the wrong, and white feminism does have more to do. I think the interesting issue is what precisely, and that's worth exploring, I'll set up another thread so as not to detail this one.

I think part of the issue is shame. It's shameful for white feminists to think they have more work to do still on race, when already focused on fighting patriarchy, and to some extent, class. But that's for individuals to address. For anyone wanting more info, the chapter in Reni Eddo-Lodge's book on white feminism is valuable. I don't agree with all of it, but an eye-opening read.

As for the trans activist community being more supportive of Black women... well, I disagree. It's just another way to centre biological men. It doesn't advance black women, in my opinion. There's been BLM protests, BTLM protests - nothing for BfemaleLM and nor will there be unless as an afterthought now. Breonna Taylor's killers won't be jailed any time soon.

And while I wholeheartedly support the movement BLM and anti-racism, I do not support the actual organisation because I am not a Marxist and when I look at their stated aims beyond ending systemic racism, they don't align with my general beliefs, particularly when the U.K. BLM branch is merrily lying that the Zionists are gagging the British press. I can be anti-racist and support the fundamental concept that BLM, without supporting BLM the organisation.